Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 9843497" data-attributes="member: 177">Great questions!I think we spin waaaaay to much over the distinctions here, like between, "...is a story," and, "...is a story generator" and other variations on the theme, and trying to impose them on one another, or feeling they are imposed upon us by others.  Especially when we consider that not all RPGs have to be exactly the same thing!  There can be games designed to do different things, and tables that choose different approaches.Maybe Joe's game is a story, and Sarah's game is a story generator, and Frank doesn't care about story, he's just doing some great tactical dungeon crawling.  And all that's okay.  We can co-exist without imposing on each other what games must be.That's a huge question, because I play a lot of different games, so there isn't just one answer.  Maybe in another post in the discussion....For me, there's very few things RPGs always are.  I don't think I can recall any play of an RPG in which I didn't have a story in hand when all was said and done.  I think the distinctions are all in what kinds of story (if any) we intend, and how we go about producing it.Like, back in the 80s, when I first started, play was mostly TSR modules, very dungeon crawley, tactical, logistics-focused, and concerned with what the characters could accomplish.  Story was the resulting "war stories" about those exploits, mostly focused, again, on the what, but typically left out the logistical bean-counting aspects of play.As time went on, I became more interested in who the character was, and considering what they could do, and what they chose to do, as an expression of who they were.  That grew even more quickly as I branched into other games, in other genres.And, once I was thinking about who, then I was able to think about how the who changes over time (much like how the what changes with leveling up).  And that brought me to something like story and character arc in a less tactical sense.And, along with these changes came some real-world changes - my original modes of play were supported by 6-8 hour sessions, once or twice a week (or more, in long lazy summers).  But adults have jobs, families, commitments and diverse interests, so length and frequency of sessions of play shrank.With growing time constrains came choices - what produced the most entertaining experience for the people playing?  At this point, there are board and computer games that do tactical and logistical play better, with less hassle for the players.  But, we find not much does character-study and story play than an RPG.I see this attitude a lot, but I end up feeling it is a bit overstated.  I mean, yeah, my table isn't producing a polished tale like a published novel that's been through 17 rounds of editing and rewriting by a master of prose word choice.  A table typically produces the equivalent of a first draft, with no editing.  First drafts are always messy, need pacing improvement and all.  I am not sure that means that a first draft isn't also a story, though.Yeah, I find this overstated as well, especially as we leave the tactical and traditional play styles.  There does not need to be a conflict between structure and pacing and player agency, so long as the players are also aware of structure and pacing and each other's agency.I think we collectively sometimes have a bit of an issue of eliding between definitions of "plot". While in the written word, "plot" is a detailed series of events, each impacting the next, which are all written by the author before the readers ever see it.  And that, of course, will tend to run afoul of player agency.But I think there is a valid use that is more like, "The Duke has some goals, and will be taking actions towards those goals, and any time the PCs are interacting with those activities, they are involved in the Duke plot."  This kind of "plot" is not necessarily agency-violating, so long as the GM has the Duke adapt to events as they unfold.</blockquote>

Verification