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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8331331" data-attributes="member: 16814">There is not a duality where it's either a &quot;built world exists irrespective of the [characters],&quot; or &quot;nothing but player wish fulfillment.&quot;&nbsp; I mean, I get the Trad approach here, and that's great, but there's lots of ways to play that do not boil down to your strawman there.I'm a huge fan of Blades in the Dark, for instance, which has a thumbnail sketch for the world and is largely detailed and expanded by play.&nbsp; I very much would be interested in you finding a player of BitD that remotely suggests that game is anywhere close to any kind of wish fulfillment, much less nothing but.&nbsp; Or that Dungeon World, where the setting is also thumbnailed, but is built entirely as part of play, with heavy player input, as being wish fulfillment.&nbsp; The very systems of these games are fundamentally opposed to granting any sort of player wish fulfillment, and yet they can both operate quite well with little to no worldbuilding, and they absolutely, totally, and without a doubt, are not games that feature settings independent of the characters -- the setting, in large part, serves the characters.Of course, if you're approaching from a Trad point of view, then it can be a challenge to see how play differs, and, in Trad, if the above were true, the GM is not doing their job.&nbsp; I'm not a huge fan of self-play anymore, though, so I tend to ease way off the 'things happen regardless of the characters' thing, and just stick to what's going on around the characters.&nbsp; Still plenty deep -- I haven't notice a distinct difference in immersion of my players since I stopped doing solo-play in my settings.&nbsp; So, even there, in the built world concept space, the need for completely disconnected setting that the characters have to find their own connections to is not necessary.&nbsp; It can be a fun way to play, for sure, and don't take anything I'm saying here as suggesting you play incorrectly.&nbsp; My point is that yours is not at all even close to the only way to approach these things, on multiple levels.&nbsp; Mostly I'm standing up against the false dichotomy of and uncaring pre-built world vs unchecked player wish fulfillment.&nbsp; That doesn't even make sense within D&amp;D.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8331331, member: 16814"] There is not a duality where it's either a "built world exists irrespective of the [characters]," or "nothing but player wish fulfillment." I mean, I get the Trad approach here, and that's great, but there's lots of ways to play that do not boil down to your strawman there. I'm a huge fan of Blades in the Dark, for instance, which has a thumbnail sketch for the world and is largely detailed and expanded by play. I very much would be interested in you finding a player of BitD that remotely suggests that game is anywhere close to any kind of wish fulfillment, much less nothing but. Or that Dungeon World, where the setting is also thumbnailed, but is built entirely as part of play, with heavy player input, as being wish fulfillment. The very systems of these games are fundamentally opposed to granting any sort of player wish fulfillment, and yet they can both operate quite well with little to no worldbuilding, and they absolutely, totally, and without a doubt, are not games that feature settings independent of the characters -- the setting, in large part, serves the characters. Of course, if you're approaching from a Trad point of view, then it can be a challenge to see how play differs, and, in Trad, if the above were true, the GM is not doing their job. I'm not a huge fan of self-play anymore, though, so I tend to ease way off the 'things happen regardless of the characters' thing, and just stick to what's going on around the characters. Still plenty deep -- I haven't notice a distinct difference in immersion of my players since I stopped doing solo-play in my settings. So, even there, in the built world concept space, the need for completely disconnected setting that the characters have to find their own connections to is not necessary. It can be a fun way to play, for sure, and don't take anything I'm saying here as suggesting you play incorrectly. My point is that yours is not at all even close to the only way to approach these things, on multiple levels. Mostly I'm standing up against the false dichotomy of and uncaring pre-built world vs unchecked player wish fulfillment. That doesn't even make sense within D&D. [/QUOTE]

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