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<blockquote data-quote="Gadget" data-source="post: 7398488" data-attributes="member: 23716"><p>The opposite of what? balanced? You seem to be saying that the only options are: have the spell not be to particularly useful for its level, or instantly pawn almost any foe. There are other ways. Perhaps it could have a lesser effect (stun, slow, etc.) on foes with greater than 100 hp. IIRC 3e had something like this over several categories of HP ranges. Or the spell could just do a boatload of damage to those who's HP total exceeded the limit, as I proposed above. Or even a casting time of a bonus action or reaction. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They did more than bounded accuracy, but you are referring to the action economy, which is what Legendary Creatures with Legendary Resistances, Legendary actions, Lair Actions and such were designed to mitigate, with varying degrees of success. Or you could just have more foes; numbers count more in this edition, and 'taking out' (not that the spell <em>has</em> to do such) one out of four or so tough opponents is less of an "I win button."</p><p></p><p>I just did a quick perusal of OGL Monsters for 5e (a pitiful small sample of the whole, non-OGL field, mind you) and it seems that by CR7 or 8 most monsters are not outright 'taken out' by this spell, with a few exceptions like Arch Mage and such. A fair bit of CR 6 and a few CR 5 are not affected either. I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing per se, just presenting a data point. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>From a design standpoint, I would say it depends on cost to benefit. If it costs enough, it could merit the benefit. A fireball could be instant and unavoidable death for a lot of creatures, particularly upcast (or pick other heavy damage spell).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Of course it is a group effort! Very few of us (I would imagine) do player vs player. It is a matter of contributing effectively to the success of the team/party that many of us are concerned with. I realize some are more number crunchy or 'gamiest' than others. Some more story oriented etc., but the above seems to translate into "I don't care a wit about balance, you might as well not even have spell levels and such, as long as we can just play along." That's a great attitude and fun play style, but it makes it hard to have a meaningful conversation about balance and design, though it is a play style to keep in mind when designing the game to avoid over-complicating things.</p><p></p><p>D&D also has a strong strategic and (perhaps less so in this edition) tactical element. Resource management and expenditure is a thing, and though I think it wise to avoid playing in such a way that things are 'balanced' to within a hair on a spreadsheet like stock analysts at the stock exchange, some consideration should be given here. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sounds fun. I would think in such a campaign, 'knocking off' a BBEG would be less of an issue than others. But I'm not advocating instant death for everyone though.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Interesting, perhaps making the spell a bonus action to cast in your type of campaign would give the spell (otherwise unchanged) a nice and useful niche by making it harder to disrupt. Or not, I guess it would need to be play tested.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gadget, post: 7398488, member: 23716"] The opposite of what? balanced? You seem to be saying that the only options are: have the spell not be to particularly useful for its level, or instantly pawn almost any foe. There are other ways. Perhaps it could have a lesser effect (stun, slow, etc.) on foes with greater than 100 hp. IIRC 3e had something like this over several categories of HP ranges. Or the spell could just do a boatload of damage to those who's HP total exceeded the limit, as I proposed above. Or even a casting time of a bonus action or reaction. They did more than bounded accuracy, but you are referring to the action economy, which is what Legendary Creatures with Legendary Resistances, Legendary actions, Lair Actions and such were designed to mitigate, with varying degrees of success. Or you could just have more foes; numbers count more in this edition, and 'taking out' (not that the spell [I]has[/I] to do such) one out of four or so tough opponents is less of an "I win button." I just did a quick perusal of OGL Monsters for 5e (a pitiful small sample of the whole, non-OGL field, mind you) and it seems that by CR7 or 8 most monsters are not outright 'taken out' by this spell, with a few exceptions like Arch Mage and such. A fair bit of CR 6 and a few CR 5 are not affected either. I'm not saying that is a good or bad thing per se, just presenting a data point. From a design standpoint, I would say it depends on cost to benefit. If it costs enough, it could merit the benefit. A fireball could be instant and unavoidable death for a lot of creatures, particularly upcast (or pick other heavy damage spell). Of course it is a group effort! Very few of us (I would imagine) do player vs player. It is a matter of contributing effectively to the success of the team/party that many of us are concerned with. I realize some are more number crunchy or 'gamiest' than others. Some more story oriented etc., but the above seems to translate into "I don't care a wit about balance, you might as well not even have spell levels and such, as long as we can just play along." That's a great attitude and fun play style, but it makes it hard to have a meaningful conversation about balance and design, though it is a play style to keep in mind when designing the game to avoid over-complicating things. D&D also has a strong strategic and (perhaps less so in this edition) tactical element. Resource management and expenditure is a thing, and though I think it wise to avoid playing in such a way that things are 'balanced' to within a hair on a spreadsheet like stock analysts at the stock exchange, some consideration should be given here. Sounds fun. I would think in such a campaign, 'knocking off' a BBEG would be less of an issue than others. But I'm not advocating instant death for everyone though. Interesting, perhaps making the spell a bonus action to cast in your type of campaign would give the spell (otherwise unchanged) a nice and useful niche by making it harder to disrupt. Or not, I guess it would need to be play tested. [/QUOTE]
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