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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mr. Gnome" data-source="post: 761876" data-attributes="member: 10554">Assume, for a moment, that you have a Holy Liberator (ala Defenders of the Faith) with 11 total character levels.  Assume also, that this Holy Liberator has a large (4 HD) dire badger for his celestial companion, ignoring potential balance problems inherant in this situation.  Now, assume your Holy Liberator dies.  Since there isn't any specific official ruling on the subject (that I am aware of), assume the death of a Holy Liberator affects his celestial companion the same way the death of a wizard would affect her familiar as described in Tome & Blood.  Namely, that it loses skills, saves (assumedly), and HP granted by having a master, but keeps all other abilities as though the master was of two levels lower than her level upon death.  Since the Holy Liberator doesn't bestow hit points upon his companion (just bonus HD), this isn't relevant, but the skills and saves are.Okay, now assume another character comes along, and wants to have this holy liberator touched, intellegent celestial dire badger for a cohort.  Assuming ECL is what matters for purposes of what level cohort you can attract and cohort experience gain, what then would this creature's ECL be, based on Savage Species's method of determining it?...So, yeah, that's my question.  I guess we can start by ditching the celestial template, since the book prices that at +2 ECL.  So, now we just have a Holy-Liberator-touched, large dire badger (with 6 hit dice-4 naturally, 2 granted by being a celestial companion).  Pricing each of the abilities as suggested in the book:Unbalanced Ability Scores(23 STR, 15 DEX, 23 CON, 6 INT, 12 WIS, 10 CHA)....+1 (+2?)+6 Natural Armor...................................+2Burrow Speed.......................................+1Natural Weapons (3)................................+1Improved Evasion...................................+1?Scent..............................................+1Rage...............................................+0This places the level adjustment at +7, making for a ECL 13 character.However, here's where the difficult part begins.  Namely, what the book refers to the "Acid test."  Basically, you test the adjustments by looking at the stats, and figuring out what class benefits the most from the scores, add a level of the class, and then asking youself, "Would you rather play a monster character of that ECL, or a standard character of that level?"So we look at a the badger's stats, and see that fighter is probably the best choice, given the high str. and con. (barbarian would be pointless, since it gets unlimited free rages per day anyway).  So we have Badger 6/Fighter 1, and compare it to a human Fighter 14.In this case, the fighter gets 10+13d10 HP (81.5 average), 3 attacks at +14/+9/+4, and 6 feats + 8 extra fighter feats. But the badger on the other hand gets 8+5d8+1d10+36 HP (72 average), 3 attacks at +10/+10/+5, 3 feats + 1 extra feat, +6 natural armor (but an inability to use shields), the ability to rage (which can be as much of a curse as a blessing, due to it being involunary), scent, improved evasion, and burrow speed but lacks communication ability and the ability to use many types of items and weapons.So who has the advantage here?  If it is the human fighter, then the badger's ECL should be lowered.  If it is the badger, than the ECL should be raised.  But if it's neither, than the ECL is probably about right.  Keep in mind these comparisons are with average ability scores, but that shouldn't affect anything.So my question to you, I guess, is should it be lowered?  Raised?  Right now, I'm thinking probably lowered, as even though they are comparable, the fighter's attacks are better, plus he gets 14 feats to the badger's 4.  Feats he can use to increase his effectiveness in combat.  Remeber if we lower it, we have to do the same thing again.Well, I might as well do it again.  Lowering the ECL to +6 and comparing to a 13th level fighter, who now gets 76 HP to the badger's 72, 3 attacks at +13/+8/+3 (as opposed to +10/+10/+5), and 13 feats to the badger's 4.  I think this is probably a closer comparison, but I don't know.As I said, input would rock.  Thanks.--The Gnome</blockquote>

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