Level checks for Arcane Spell Failure?

[JimAde]

I've been kicking around the idea of using a level check instead of the flat ASF chance. I don't like the idea that you have as much trouble casting a spell you've known for years as you do with one you just picked up. Plus the current rules violate the "Roll high on a d20 to succeed" thing.

The DC would be something like:

(Regular ASF Chance / 5) + (Spell Level * 2)

1 always fails, 20 always succeeds.

So if your armor has an ASF of 30% and you are casting a Fireball (level 3) the DC would be 12 (6 for the armor, 6 for the spell).

If you are a 5th level wizard, who can barely cast this spell, you would fail 30% of the time (just as in the RAW). But if you cast Magic Missile, there's only a 10% failure chance. A flat 1 or 2 could be added to the DC so that your highest level spells actually fail more often than currently as a bit of a balancer.

One nice thing about this is that a specialist wizard would get +1 on this check for his favored school. I believe Domain Wizards from UA cast at +1 caster level, too, so they would get this benefit as well.

So, the problems I see with this are:

1) Definite boost to arcane spell casters. A mid-level wizard can now cast 1st level spells in plate armor with only a 5% chance of failure. Of course his best spells will have the same or more chance of failing as in the RAW.

2) Same problem as #1, really, but: High-level casters can throw some pretty beefy spells with only a 5% chance of failure. A 20th level caster can do this with 8th level spells.

SO. Is this a waste of time or is it worth pursuing/refining? Opinions? Flames? Fawning praise?

 

[Aaron2]

SO. Is this a waste of time or is it worth pursuing/refining? Opinions? Flames? Fawning praise?

I like the idea. I'm tempted to say that the DC should be based on the spell (say, 10 + 2xSpell Level) and just apply the Check Penalty of the armor to the Spellcraft roll. I mostly think this because I'd like to get rid of that extra column in the armor list.

I'd like to see the Spellcraft skill somehow involved in normal spell casting but that's another thing entirely.


Aaron

 

[JimAde]

I like the idea. I'm tempted to say that the DC should be based on the spell (say, 10 + 2xSpell Level) and just apply the Check Penalty of the armor to the Spellcraft roll. I mostly think this because I'd like to get rid of that extra column in the armor list.

I'd like to see the Spellcraft skill somehow involved in normal spell casting but that's another thing entirely.


Aaron

I know what you mean about Spellcraft. But I wanted to avoid making it a skill roll because people will just take Skill Focus and similar skill-raising feats and pretty soon you've got 1st level wizards in full plate all over the place. That's why I made it a level check.

 

[Hawken]

I'd have to agree with Aaron's idea. Make it a Spellcraft check. Instead of the DC being dependent on the armor check penalty, make it the armor's bonus to armor class. There are enough qualities to reduce armor check (masterwork, mithril, etc.,) that could drop the DC so that most any wizard wouldn't have to worry about the check. Maybe add an extra 2 points to the DC for medium armor, and 4 points for heavy. And add double the spell level to the DC too.

Example: 5th level wizard with a 14 Intelligence in chainmail tries to cast a fireball. The DC is 10 (base) + 5 (armor bonus for chainmail) + 2 (for medium armor) + 6 (2 X spell level) = 23. Now if the wizard has max ranks in Spellcraft (8 + 2 for Int = 10), he still needs a 13 or higher (23 - 10 = 13) on a d20 to cast it. Even if that wizard had Skill Focus (Spellcraft) which would reduce the DC from 13 to 10, he would still have to roll a 10 or higher on the d20 roll. That's only a 55% chance of successfully unleashing a fireball. Not very good odds when that wizard or his friends might really need that fireball, but still not a totally impossible situation.

If that wizard wants to take a feat to increase his chances of successfully casting a spell in armor, let him. That's one less metamagic feat, item creation, or other feat for him to use--and face it, wizard's don't get a lot of feats. That delays him from making magic items, improving his spells, meeting prerequisites for a PrC or whatever else the player has planned for that character. Yes, the wizard will be able to cast in armor, but he'll likely be encumbered and will have to max out that skill and take one or more feats to give him a decent chance at casting while wearing the armor.

I know what you mean about Spellcraft. But I wanted to avoid making it a skill roll because people will just take Skill Focus and similar skill-raising feats and pretty soon you've got 1st level wizards in full plate all over the place. That's why I made it a level check.

Ok, let's use your example:
1st level wizard with an 18 Intelligence and max ranks (4) in Spellcraft wearing Full Plate who tries to cast Sleep (or whatever). His Spellcraft DC to successfully cast would be: 10 (base) + 8 (armor bonus for full plate) + 4 (for heavy armor) + 2 (2 X spell level) = 24. The wizard gets the following modifier to his roll: 4 (ranks in Spellcraft) + 4 (Intelligence modifier) = 8. So, he would still have to roll a 16 or higher on a d20 to cast the spell successfully. If he had Skill Focus (Spellcraft), he would have to roll a 13 or higher. That's only a 40% chance to successfully cast one of his two spells for the day! If he took yet another feat that gave him a +2 bonus to Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft (Magical Training or something like that), he would still need an 11 or higher to succeed. That's a 50% chance of success. Not much better odds and the wizard has already used two feats and taken max ranks in that skill all just for a 50/50 chance of casting a spell while wearing armor.

I don't think too many wizards would risk that! As far as balance goes, trading two feats for a better chance at casting spells while armored seems a fair enough trade.

 

[JimAde]

Hawken makes some valid points, but I have one problem with this idea: It actually makes things worse for a caster who doesn't optimize for casting while armored. I'm looking for something that will let someone who does nothing special have similar chances to the current rules. I often have Sorcerer characters that don't come close to maximizing spellcraft (because they have social skills too) and don't have especially high Int values.

 

[Hawken]

It actually makes things worse for a caster who doesn't optimize for casting while armored. I'm looking for something that will let someone who does nothing special have similar chances to the current rules. I often have Sorcerer characters that don't come close to maximizing spellcraft (because they have social skills too) and don't have especially high Int values.

I started thinking of that after I wrote it. Just to make it fair to each arcane caster class, maybe the checks could be different? Wizards could use Spellcraft, since most of them will drop points into Spellcraft. Sorcerers cast spells differently than wizards, using their innate power and focus, so perhaps a Concentration check for them would be appropriate. The skill the check is tied to for Bards could be Perform (Sing) or maybe Perform (Dance) since (at least in my campaigns) their magic is tied to the songs they sing or the dances they perform. This seems to focus on each of the arcane caster's strong points while still not necessarily hindering or neglecting the player's selection of skill ranks. This also prevents the DM from having to make up a feat just to give non-wizards the same chance as a wizard who maxes out his Spellcraft.

 

[Crothian]

I wouldn't make ait a spellcraft check just becasue it is not hard to get an item of +10 to spellcraft.

I like making it a level check.

 

[JimAde]

Hawken: If I were to use a skill check, your idea would be the way to go. It nicely differentiates the arcane casters, which is something the sorcerer really needs.

But I think I'll stick with the level check. I still think (as Crothian points out) that it's too easy to abuse with a skill check.

Thanks to everyone for their input. At least I didn't get any "what a stooopid idea" responses, so that's encouraging.

 

[Hawken]

I wish you the best with that method then.

I'm kind of working out this idea as I'm going along, so don't take the rest of this as an argument. Whatever I can 'tool' out here, I plan on incorporating into my next campaign.

Crothian has a point about caster level checks, but then that too can be mixed up. That will inhibit the caster unless he stays a single class caster. Also, I think there is some feat now (I can't remember the source) that lets a multi-class caster cast at his total character level. So, a Fighter12/Wizard8 would have a caster level of 20! Something like that seems like a greater abuse than a skill point boosting item.

As far as items go, in 3.5, a 10 point skill boosting item is more expensive now than in 3.0. So, DMs can decide whether that is an abuse or not. Alternatives include:
--Counting only half the bonus the item would grant, or even none at all.
--Doubling or tripling the cost to create such an item since the skill can now be used for something so important to arcane casters.
--Having to create an item that boosts Spellcraft (or the relevant skill for Sorcerers or Bards) specifically--and only--for the purpose of skill checks for casting while wearing armor.

 

[DrNilesCrane]

Also, I think there is some feat now (I can't remember the source) that lets a multi-class caster cast at his total character level. So, a Fighter12/Wizard8 would have a caster level of 20! Something like that seems like a greater abuse than a skill point boosting item.

I believe that feat is out of The Complete Divine and allows a multi-classed character to add a maximum of four non-caster levels to his/her casting class for level dependent effects (but not spells per day). One of my player's just picked it up for her druid to get some additional benefit from four ranger levels picked up earlier in her career.