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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kaodi" data-source="post: 3930536" data-attributes="member: 1231">So, to get down to it, I was thinking it would be interesting to try and see what monsters could conceivably diminish their own level adjustments to +0 by advancing in racial HD. Obviously, this would not work for all creatues, either because they do not possess enough racial advancement potential to balance their abilities, or because their racial HD might be equal or superior to some class HD (like the Outsider and Dragon). In fact, I went through the SRD, and after eliminating creatures that would require more than 20 HD, or were not sufficiently humanoid to be easily judged, or were from a very different environment, I think it basically came down to the much-maligned Satyr as the only candidate (though I haven't spent so very much time on this yet). So, I made these stat blocks to compare an elite Satyr with 5 and 10 HD to a human rogue with 7, 10 and 12 HD. I guess the first question would be, " Do you think that the 10 HD Elite Satyr should have a LA? " and the second question would be, " If the answer to the first question is no, what is the minimum HD Elite Satyr that should have no LA? " I suppose there might be a third question if you answered yes to the first, " Should the 10 HD Average Satyr have a LA? "( And as a note, I would be perfectly happy to continue this thread beyond the Satyr if there is actually any interest. I do not have the most wonderful record when it comes to starting lively threads. )Elite Base Satyr (ECL 7?)Size/Type: Medium FeyHit Dice: 5d6+10 (32 HP)Initiative: +3Speed: 40 ftArmour Class: 17 (+3 Dex, +4 Natural), Touch 13, Flatfooted 14Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+2Attack: Headbutt +2 Melee (1d6)Full Attack: Headbutt +2 Melee (1d6) and  Dagger -3 Melee (1d4/19-20)Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ftSpecial Attacks: PipesSpecial Qualities: DR 5/Cold Iron, Low-Light VisionSaves: Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +4Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 15Skills: Max in 9.Feats: Alertness, Dodge, MobilityHuman Rogue 7Size/Type: Medium HumanoidHit Dice: 7d6+7 (37 HP)Initiative: +3Speed: 30 ftArmour Class: 13 (+3 Dex), Touch 13, Flatfooted 13Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+5Attack: Dagger +8 Melee (1d4/19-20)Full Attack: Dagger +8 Melee (1d4/19-20)Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ftSpecial Attacks: Sneak Attack +4d6Special Qualities: Trapfinding, Evasion, Trap Sense +2, Uncanny DodgeSaves: Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +1Abilities: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 13Skills: Max in 11.Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon FinesseElite 10 HD Satyr (ECL 12?)Size/Type: Medium FeyHit Dice: 10d6+20 (62 HP)Initiative: +4Speed: 40 ftArmour Class: 18 (+4 Dex, +4 Natural), Touch 14, Flatfooted 14Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+5Attack: Headbutt +9 Melee (1d6)Full Attack: Headbutt +9 Melee (1d6) and  Dagger +4 Melee (1d4/19-20)Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ftSpecial Attacks: PipesSpecial Qualities: DR 5/Cold Iron, Low-Light VisionSaves: Fort +5, Ref +11, Will +7Abilities: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 15Skills: Max in 9.Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Spring AttackHuman Rogue 10Size/Type: Medium HumanoidHit Dice: 10d6+10 (52 HP)Initiative: +3Speed: 30 ftArmour Class: 13 (+3 Dex), Touch 13, Flatfooted 13Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+7Attack: Dagger +10 Melee (1d4/19-20)Full Attack: Dagger +10/+5 Melee (1d4/19-20)Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ftSpecial Attacks: Sneak Attack +5d6Special Qualities: Trapfinding, Improved Evasion, Trap Sense +3, Improved Uncanny DodgeSaves: Fort +4, Ref +10, Will +2Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 13Skills: Max in 11.Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Spring AttackHuman Rogue 12Size/Type: Medium HumanoidHit Dice: 12d6+12 (62 HP)Initiative: +4Speed: 30 ftArmour Class: 14 (+4 Dex), Touch 14, Flatfooted 14Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+9Attack: Dagger +13 Melee (1d4/19-20)Full Attack: Dagger +13/+8 Melee (1d4/19-20)Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ftSpecial Attacks: Sneak Attack +6d6Special Qualities: Trapfinding, Improved Evasion, Trap Sense +4, Improved Uncanny DodgeSaves: Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +1Abilities: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 13Skills: Max in 11.Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise</blockquote>

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