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Levels 1-4 are "Training Wheels?"
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8513990" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>It's never been a problem for me, but perhaps this is a matter of motivation. You don't want it, so doing it would be an added chore. I do, so doing it is a desirable goal.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I have personally experienced things of this nature. I always roll in the open for anything the vast majority of rolls--and <em>definitely</em> always in the open for damage and similar "could harm your character" events. (Stuff like "what treasures are in the box?" is fine for rolling behind the scenes, since that's just inspiration and, in general, is only used for things where neither the players nor I had any way to know what was there in advance.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>In my experience, this feeling is inaccurate, an example of the specter of "perfectly balanced encounters," which few players actually want and no games (to my knowledge) actually recommend. Of course, I cannot know your group, so it's possible they were as you say, petulant and demanding, unwilling to consider anything but the most foolishly reckless behavior and (seemingly) needing to be reined in.</p><p></p><p>My experience of most groups is diametrically opposite. Most groups I've seen where death is not an interesting consequence are highly conservative, taking the absolute least dangerous position, unless some higher calling makes an absolute demand (e.g. if the party is overall noble but trickster-y, taking down a tyrannical ruler or helping innocent and endangered victims may place a higher claim than always pursuing the course that takes the fewest risks.) To respond with recklessness would be rather severely missing the point. For my part, this is because I had an honest conversation with my players, and in part because they are naturally gunshy. But the conversation basically said, "I won't take your character away forever just because something crappy happened. If a character dies, there will be consequences, but you having to create a new character when you don't want to isn't one of them. I will NOT, however, protect you from the consequences of rank foolishness. A good-faith effort is fine. Don't exploit this." And I meant it (though I used more and different words.) I'm 100% fine supporting a player and them wanting to continue the story they've invested into, but as soon as the players start exploiting my good will to get away with things Just Because They Can, I'm going to be a lot less kind. As noted, my players are much too <em>cautious</em> rather than too <em>reckless</em>, so this is not a concern, but even if they weren't overly cautious I wouldn't fear them exploiting this, they're troopers and very patient with me.</p><p></p><p>And if you can't tell your players, "hey, I'm doing this as a gesture of respect and kindness to you, please don't exploit it" and they cannot abide by that request...I feel like there's a bigger problem going on than whether or not death is an issue.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8513990, member: 6790260"] It's never been a problem for me, but perhaps this is a matter of motivation. You don't want it, so doing it would be an added chore. I do, so doing it is a desirable goal. I have personally experienced things of this nature. I always roll in the open for anything the vast majority of rolls--and [I]definitely[/I] always in the open for damage and similar "could harm your character" events. (Stuff like "what treasures are in the box?" is fine for rolling behind the scenes, since that's just inspiration and, in general, is only used for things where neither the players nor I had any way to know what was there in advance.) In my experience, this feeling is inaccurate, an example of the specter of "perfectly balanced encounters," which few players actually want and no games (to my knowledge) actually recommend. Of course, I cannot know your group, so it's possible they were as you say, petulant and demanding, unwilling to consider anything but the most foolishly reckless behavior and (seemingly) needing to be reined in. My experience of most groups is diametrically opposite. Most groups I've seen where death is not an interesting consequence are highly conservative, taking the absolute least dangerous position, unless some higher calling makes an absolute demand (e.g. if the party is overall noble but trickster-y, taking down a tyrannical ruler or helping innocent and endangered victims may place a higher claim than always pursuing the course that takes the fewest risks.) To respond with recklessness would be rather severely missing the point. For my part, this is because I had an honest conversation with my players, and in part because they are naturally gunshy. But the conversation basically said, "I won't take your character away forever just because something crappy happened. If a character dies, there will be consequences, but you having to create a new character when you don't want to isn't one of them. I will NOT, however, protect you from the consequences of rank foolishness. A good-faith effort is fine. Don't exploit this." And I meant it (though I used more and different words.) I'm 100% fine supporting a player and them wanting to continue the story they've invested into, but as soon as the players start exploiting my good will to get away with things Just Because They Can, I'm going to be a lot less kind. As noted, my players are much too [I]cautious[/I] rather than too [I]reckless[/I], so this is not a concern, but even if they weren't overly cautious I wouldn't fear them exploiting this, they're troopers and very patient with me. And if you can't tell your players, "hey, I'm doing this as a gesture of respect and kindness to you, please don't exploit it" and they cannot abide by that request...I feel like there's a bigger problem going on than whether or not death is an issue. [/QUOTE]
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