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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Levels 1-4 are "Training Wheels?"
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<blockquote data-quote="Lyxen" data-source="post: 8517600" data-attributes="member: 7032025"><p>The thing is that you assume that because these places exist, all the NPCs gathering there are adventurers with levels. But (and see the discussion in the other thread), it does not have to be the case, I have many troubadours and trouveres congregating with bards, many fighters and gladiators without class level (and unable to progress much or indeed at all) in arenas, the same with mercenaries, etc. All of these are unlikely to have magical items or the fund to buy them, and even less to have them for sale.</p><p></p><p>When was the last time your party encountered real other adventurers ? For me, it happens now and then in some campaigns, but there are not that many over the world. Look at the FR, there are a few adventuring companies which are well known over the whole continent, they don't meet very often and I've never seen magic item shopping in any of the novels. Buying a few potions and consumable yes, no worries, but no real magic item shopping.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And we don't use that trope, since it's been way too overused, for one, and we favour building the party on stronger links than this, again for story purpose. So we don't have those.</p><p></p><p>Moreover, these would be really low level adventurers, and unlikely to have magic items, funds, or even less something to sell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And how would these places have the means to defend their vault ? Who would they employ to prevent adventurers to raid their stores ? Or even nastier people actually...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>See above.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For us, that class is very setting specific and we don't like it despite WotC trying to explain that they have been in all worlds all along, we do know the truth from previous publications, these abominations have thankfully not spread beyond Eberron (and maybe Krynn with the Tinker gnomes but noone sane goes there these days anyway) <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></p><p></p><p>As for magic items, since they are quite resistant, they come from previous civilisations, or were created by powerful casters for themselves and their minions, and they have since passed away, the usual explanations.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Cool. I suspect that, as usual, we are closer than our internet position comfortably allow us to state while arguing. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I'm not against magic items trade, actually, but I'm certainly against magic items shops, for two reasons:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In game, as explained, I don't see how it would function and how it would be defended.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Out of game, I don't want players to optimise their items for their build. 5e has thankfully gotten rid of the mandatory magic items of 3e and 4e just to get bonuses because they were not able to balance the game otherwise, so I can give fun items with a history and interesting powers, it's not for players to powergame, and come and buy exactly the right items to widen the power gap.</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And that I completely agree with, to a certain extent. In our settings, adventurers are not that common, and they have a tendency to die (except the PCs, of course, who are slightly less likely), which means that, in the general population of adventurers, they will be mostly low level, so without or with few items, and therefore unlikely to sell them.</p><p></p><p>Of course, if you have a world where there are tons of adventurers, including many high level ones, it's a different story, but then I'm not sure how the setting works with these powerful "free electrons" all over the place. Note that it looks impossible to run, but the world's organisation should take that into account, it's not even the case in the FR where most of the powerful bands actually settle (and it's the way I tend to run things again, I've been raised on BECMI and adventurers having dominions after a while, etc.).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I can go with that, it's just that for me it requires a really large city, you won't find it in the provinces. Waterdeep, Greyhawk, Sharn, that kind of city. That being said, I love city adventures and I am happy with that kind of process, and actually it's the one 5e suggests.</p><p></p><p>But all of that also means that it's not easy to get a reliable estimate for an item, since there are no lists to compare things to. Moreover, as mentioned above, I tend to give really singular items with complex powers, not ones out of the books (or after careful selection), and very " plusses" items, so how does one assess this ?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Exactly, but they will make <u>their</u> stuff, with specificities, not always what some PCs want, and the price tag will refer their own costs, etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I understand the way you are running things as well, we did it for a long time in particular under 3e, but the thing is that most of our players realised that they don't like this that much. It's a lot of bookkeeping, counting, etc. and they do enough of that in their job if not in their day-to-day life. So for me it's not a question or realism, these things exist and we assume the characters take care of it, they are simply under the radar and assumed to be done in the background, so that we can concentrate on what makes it fun for us.</p><p></p><p>But if your players prefer managing that and enjoy the details of the computation and the lists of things, good for them, have fun !</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not sure I saw it, but I believe you, no worries, it's just that once more we assume that training is done in the background and we move on directly to exciting adventures.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lyxen, post: 8517600, member: 7032025"] The thing is that you assume that because these places exist, all the NPCs gathering there are adventurers with levels. But (and see the discussion in the other thread), it does not have to be the case, I have many troubadours and trouveres congregating with bards, many fighters and gladiators without class level (and unable to progress much or indeed at all) in arenas, the same with mercenaries, etc. All of these are unlikely to have magical items or the fund to buy them, and even less to have them for sale. When was the last time your party encountered real other adventurers ? For me, it happens now and then in some campaigns, but there are not that many over the world. Look at the FR, there are a few adventuring companies which are well known over the whole continent, they don't meet very often and I've never seen magic item shopping in any of the novels. Buying a few potions and consumable yes, no worries, but no real magic item shopping. And we don't use that trope, since it's been way too overused, for one, and we favour building the party on stronger links than this, again for story purpose. So we don't have those. Moreover, these would be really low level adventurers, and unlikely to have magic items, funds, or even less something to sell. And how would these places have the means to defend their vault ? Who would they employ to prevent adventurers to raid their stores ? Or even nastier people actually... See above. For us, that class is very setting specific and we don't like it despite WotC trying to explain that they have been in all worlds all along, we do know the truth from previous publications, these abominations have thankfully not spread beyond Eberron (and maybe Krynn with the Tinker gnomes but noone sane goes there these days anyway) :D As for magic items, since they are quite resistant, they come from previous civilisations, or were created by powerful casters for themselves and their minions, and they have since passed away, the usual explanations. Cool. I suspect that, as usual, we are closer than our internet position comfortably allow us to state while arguing. :) I'm not against magic items trade, actually, but I'm certainly against magic items shops, for two reasons: [LIST] [*]In game, as explained, I don't see how it would function and how it would be defended. [*]Out of game, I don't want players to optimise their items for their build. 5e has thankfully gotten rid of the mandatory magic items of 3e and 4e just to get bonuses because they were not able to balance the game otherwise, so I can give fun items with a history and interesting powers, it's not for players to powergame, and come and buy exactly the right items to widen the power gap. [/LIST] And that I completely agree with, to a certain extent. In our settings, adventurers are not that common, and they have a tendency to die (except the PCs, of course, who are slightly less likely), which means that, in the general population of adventurers, they will be mostly low level, so without or with few items, and therefore unlikely to sell them. Of course, if you have a world where there are tons of adventurers, including many high level ones, it's a different story, but then I'm not sure how the setting works with these powerful "free electrons" all over the place. Note that it looks impossible to run, but the world's organisation should take that into account, it's not even the case in the FR where most of the powerful bands actually settle (and it's the way I tend to run things again, I've been raised on BECMI and adventurers having dominions after a while, etc.). I can go with that, it's just that for me it requires a really large city, you won't find it in the provinces. Waterdeep, Greyhawk, Sharn, that kind of city. That being said, I love city adventures and I am happy with that kind of process, and actually it's the one 5e suggests. But all of that also means that it's not easy to get a reliable estimate for an item, since there are no lists to compare things to. Moreover, as mentioned above, I tend to give really singular items with complex powers, not ones out of the books (or after careful selection), and very " plusses" items, so how does one assess this ? Exactly, but they will make [U]their[/U] stuff, with specificities, not always what some PCs want, and the price tag will refer their own costs, etc. And I understand the way you are running things as well, we did it for a long time in particular under 3e, but the thing is that most of our players realised that they don't like this that much. It's a lot of bookkeeping, counting, etc. and they do enough of that in their job if not in their day-to-day life. So for me it's not a question or realism, these things exist and we assume the characters take care of it, they are simply under the radar and assumed to be done in the background, so that we can concentrate on what makes it fun for us. But if your players prefer managing that and enjoy the details of the computation and the lists of things, good for them, have fun ! Not sure I saw it, but I believe you, no worries, it's just that once more we assume that training is done in the background and we move on directly to exciting adventures. [/QUOTE]
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Levels 1-4 are "Training Wheels?"
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