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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dr_Rictus" data-source="post: 971614" data-attributes="member: 850">Hey, Kemrain.  Piratecat brought this thread to my attention.  I was lead designer of Thief and Thief II.Haven't gone over all the details, but I would suggest that the Keepers' alignment restriction might be okay as just Neutral with respect to the Law/Chaos axis, not necessarily true Neutral.  We always framed the core conflict in Thief around anarchy (D&D chaos, represented by the pagans) vs. authoritarianism (D&D law, represented by the hammers).  Then again, the Keepers' own excessive conservatism might be best represented by the D&D view of what you might call "millitant neutrality" as a form of True Neutral.  I could see it going either way.There's also an element of magic vs. craft there, but the hammers are not entirely without mysticism (their priests use a pretty obvious variation on a spiritual hammer), and their artisanship leans a bit towards weird science (even steampunk) when taken to extremes, as we see in Thief II.  So I'd say the law vs. chaos or civilization vs. nature conflicts are more pronounced than the supernatural vs. human one.The take on the glyphs is good.  The fact of a secret language alone adds mystique, and needn't be over-embellished.That said, the Keepers are a scholarly and mystical organization as well as an espionage one.  I wouldn't tinker with this class based on that, but I might add Loremasters to their ranks.  Their divination requirement meshes nicely with the Keepers' obsession with prophecy, too.I don't see the need for the 15+ Intelligence requirement, when so many of the class abilities key to Intelligence anyway.  I like WotC's standard in this regard, where ability scores are required of classes as a practical matter, not as a technicality.I never was fond of Traps & Treachery's Urban Lore skill.  New skills deflate the value of a skill point, and are almost never necessary.  Especially since D&D 3.5 is making this "Survival" anyway, in which case do you really need separate skills for wilderness and urban survival, in a setting that hardly ever leaves the city?</blockquote>

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