Lich Template

[mikebr99]

Ok...
a PC has worked his player up to a point of great power, and wants to live forever (and increase his power). He decides to become a Lich (and stay a PC).

How would you handle adding the Lich template to an existing (lets say 15th level Wizard) character?

[edit] http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17946 The arguments are here... (thanks Valicor)

 

[MJEggertson]

I have a lich PC who's retired and is now used as an NPC. Had 3rd edition been around when I played him as a PC, I'd have just bumped up his effective character level by whatever the MM says (2?).

So, the act of becoming a lich adds two levels to your CL, and it then takes a long time to reach your next experience level, since you don't have the xp for those two CLs. A Wiz15 would become level 17, and wouldn't be able to advance to Wiz16 until enough experience is gained for level 18 (assuming the template does a +2 modifier).

 

[RogueJK]

Had 3rd edition been around when I played him as a PC, I'd have just bumped up his effective character level by whatever the MM says (2?).

The MM doesn't mention an ECL increase for the Lich... (CR != ECL)

Dragon Magazine 293, though, lists the Lich as ECL +3.

 

[Artoomis]

If he's given all the powers of a lich, I'd say +5 or +6 ECL is about right - I'd require that the process takes a huge amount of experience points to complete. These points need to be saved up until he has enough.

Alternately, give him just a little bit of power at a time - but that's not really how liches are created, but you could play with teh gradual transformation concept. Essentially - design a 5 (or 6) level prestige class - "lich" - and require that one cannot take a level in any other class until the lich class is complete.

The latter method is the easiest way to handle this and keep the character's power level about the same as the rest of the pary.

 

[rendarkin]

(warning: my opinions follow)

Liches and other templates that are acquired after you start playing the character should be no modifier to ECL. In the case of the lich, there is an express set of the requirements. Once you do those, you get the template. Thank you for being an 11th level wizard with the feat, time, money, and experience points to spare.

Likewise, if a player gets turned into a wereboar or vampire, they just get ... transformed. Nowhere in the game does it say "after turning into a lich (or vampire, or werebeast, etc.) you must throw out the next 20,000 xps before going up a level.".

They've done a pretty good job overall of scaling things and pricing things in 3e, but some things just don't fit in the scaling system. The prime example is: artifacts. Players can't make them and they have no price, so the DM can't calulate them in the treasure per level. What is the ECL of an 11th level wizard with a Staff of the Magi? Answer: no modifier can be found in the rules. However, you want to place bets whether he would win vs. a 15th level wizard with no artifacts?

3e was built with some great systems to finally give a DM ways to gauge and control their game. I personally don't believe that the idea *ever* was to calculate the inherent value of every single thing in the system and build a point-based game.

My vampire and lich and werewolf NPCs have the same ECL as any non-templated NPC, but of course they have a higher CR (as per the books)...

 

[MJEggertson]

Nowhere in the game does it say "after turning into a lich (or vampire, or werebeast, etc.) you must throw out the next 20,000 xps before going up a level.".

Good point. I'm sold.

Originally posted by RogueJK
The MM doesn't mention an ECL increase for the Lich... (CR != ECL)

Dragon Magazine 293, though, lists the Lich as ECL +3.

Errm....ya, you're right. It's been ages since I looked at the MM and I wasn't really sure what was written there. I guess, after rendarkin's statement, I'd treat advancement normally, but may factor in the +3 ECL when figuring out encounters and such. But in the end, encounters with mulitiple creatures confuse the hell out of me, so I'd just wing it anyway and hope the PCs come out alive!

 

[Valicor]

Well I say he should have to take the xp hit and advance for a long stretched level.
As my arguments are dislayed in the other thread.

 

[Bastoche]

I voted for other, so I will specify:

Lich should NEVER NEVER NEVER be a PC option. Too powerful and boring for the other characters.

Maybe put it as an epic level option. But not otherwise.

This has the advantages of not having to find an anwser about ECL.