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Life Without "the Gods" or Playing D&D without the DDG.
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<blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 6637858" data-attributes="member: 92511"><p>(@Yaarel)</p><p></p><p>It came up in the errata thread [EDIT: no it was one of the psionics ones /EDIT] and in an effort not to derail that thread further, and just because I love these sorts of world-building questions/issues, I thought I'd make this separate thread to explore/expand the discussion...</p><p></p><p>It has been proposed that one can not play/use clerics, or the whole 5e system, specifically (but any edition seems fair game) without incoporating the "baked in" assumption of deities.</p><p></p><p>How do you play D&D without deities? Can you? Have you created a world without gods? How did you do it? How did your players like it?</p><p></p><p>Anything's pretty much fair game on the topic.</p><p></p><p>I would submit it has already been done, and quite easily and successfuly in BECM. The Mentzer Basic [red book/box] even called it out specifically, that they were not touching religious belief or the question of deities with a 10' foot pole. Clerics gained their spells and abilities based on the strength of their "beliefs". That was as far as it went. There was no presumption of deities in the game world and it was left to individual tables how much or little they wanted to include the concept of "religion" at all.</p><p></p><p>Clerics could still "turn undead", they hasd spells like Bless, Cure Wounds, Light and various divinations ["Detect" spells]. But all of that, for lack of a better way of putting it, was just because you [the cleric] were different. You had stronger beliefs in...whatever...that granted you this level of power. Call it "enlightenment." Call it "fervor" or "passion." Call them virtues or ideals. But there wasn't a deity to be found, spelled out, in BECMI from which you were "granted" powers.</p><p></p><p>So it most certainly is possible to have and play D&D without any gods. And, while, 1e didn't shy away from the topic of religion in the game world quite as much, <em>Deities & Demigods</em> [later <em>Legends & Lore</em>] read like a <em>Monster Manual</em>. The gods all had stats. It was a presumption of the game that the PCs, at some point, <em>could/might </em>conceivably MEET and even FIGHT gods (due in no small part, I am sure, from source material like Conan, Elric, or the works of Lovecraft, not to mention more than a few real world mythologies, where heroes did battle and made deals with "gods" relatively often).</p><p></p><p>But even in 1e, you could easily have a cleric character and never brooch the topic of "What god do you believe in/serve that gives you your powers?"</p><p></p><p>It really was the advent of setting creation and publication where a certain suite of deities became "the norm"/necessary for a setting's given verisimilitude...as what civilizations in "real world" history were ever created without some mythology for people to "follow."</p><p></p><p>So, now, yes, the belief in a deity is a given for a Cleric in the game we have today. The domain mechanics help to pull that further in [as was introduced with 2e], but I am struggling to understand the view that one would not be capable of pulling that out/ignoring that fluff of the class and using it as is...just on the narrative of "It's the Cleric's personal strength of belief/ideals/virtues [however one is to personally define them, out of game] that fuels their powers" vs. the accepted assumption "it comes from the gods."</p><p></p><p>So...there...go! haha.</p><p></p><p>Have you done clerics without deities? How did it work? How did it play? What changed/was different than playing with the deific fluff?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="steeldragons, post: 6637858, member: 92511"] (@Yaarel) It came up in the errata thread [EDIT: no it was one of the psionics ones /EDIT] and in an effort not to derail that thread further, and just because I love these sorts of world-building questions/issues, I thought I'd make this separate thread to explore/expand the discussion... It has been proposed that one can not play/use clerics, or the whole 5e system, specifically (but any edition seems fair game) without incoporating the "baked in" assumption of deities. How do you play D&D without deities? Can you? Have you created a world without gods? How did you do it? How did your players like it? Anything's pretty much fair game on the topic. I would submit it has already been done, and quite easily and successfuly in BECM. The Mentzer Basic [red book/box] even called it out specifically, that they were not touching religious belief or the question of deities with a 10' foot pole. Clerics gained their spells and abilities based on the strength of their "beliefs". That was as far as it went. There was no presumption of deities in the game world and it was left to individual tables how much or little they wanted to include the concept of "religion" at all. Clerics could still "turn undead", they hasd spells like Bless, Cure Wounds, Light and various divinations ["Detect" spells]. But all of that, for lack of a better way of putting it, was just because you [the cleric] were different. You had stronger beliefs in...whatever...that granted you this level of power. Call it "enlightenment." Call it "fervor" or "passion." Call them virtues or ideals. But there wasn't a deity to be found, spelled out, in BECMI from which you were "granted" powers. So it most certainly is possible to have and play D&D without any gods. And, while, 1e didn't shy away from the topic of religion in the game world quite as much, [I]Deities & Demigods[/I] [later [I]Legends & Lore[/I]] read like a [I]Monster Manual[/I]. The gods all had stats. It was a presumption of the game that the PCs, at some point, [I]could/might [/I]conceivably MEET and even FIGHT gods (due in no small part, I am sure, from source material like Conan, Elric, or the works of Lovecraft, not to mention more than a few real world mythologies, where heroes did battle and made deals with "gods" relatively often). But even in 1e, you could easily have a cleric character and never brooch the topic of "What god do you believe in/serve that gives you your powers?" It really was the advent of setting creation and publication where a certain suite of deities became "the norm"/necessary for a setting's given verisimilitude...as what civilizations in "real world" history were ever created without some mythology for people to "follow." So, now, yes, the belief in a deity is a given for a Cleric in the game we have today. The domain mechanics help to pull that further in [as was introduced with 2e], but I am struggling to understand the view that one would not be capable of pulling that out/ignoring that fluff of the class and using it as is...just on the narrative of "It's the Cleric's personal strength of belief/ideals/virtues [however one is to personally define them, out of game] that fuels their powers" vs. the accepted assumption "it comes from the gods." So...there...go! haha. Have you done clerics without deities? How did it work? How did it play? What changed/was different than playing with the deific fluff? [/QUOTE]
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