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<blockquote data-quote="Yaarel" data-source="post: 6642242" data-attributes="member: 58172"><p>LOL, the way D&D presents Norse belief is so ignorant, it hurts to read.</p><p></p><p>At least, the 5e PH has the decency to say: ‘The .. Norse pantheons are <strong>fantasy interpretations</strong> of historical religions from our world’s ancient times .. <strong>for use in a D&D game</strong>, <strong>divorced from their historical context</strong> .. that <strong>serve the needs of the game</strong>.’</p><p></p><p>D&D has never tried to represent Norse belief accurately. Gygax intentionally misrepresented the beliefs of other cultures, blending them with other cultures plus silly creative whims.</p><p></p><p>I am from Norway. I read the Eddas in Norse, and am reasonably familiar with the current academic research concerning it. My dad is a historian of the Viking Era. The academics in Norway are in consensus, the Norse are animists. No priests, not temples, no worship. The Vikings related to the nature spirits in approximately the same way that later Scandinavians related to trolls. This is animism.</p><p></p><p>There were some polytheists in Denmark, under the influence of the Germans who were polytheists because of the Roman influence. A royal dynasty from Denmark brought their polytheism to Uppsala in Sweden. Altho this royal family was polytheistic, its influence was limited.</p><p></p><p>In the previous two centuries, much of the research into Scandinavians was done by German academics. The old Germans were polytheists. When these academics read Norse texts, they were less interested in understanding Norse culture, and more interested in trying to reconstruct German polytheism. But German culture is nonidentical with Norse culture. Norse are animists.</p><p></p><p>Take for example, Thorr, the ‘thunderer’. He is a nature spirit. He is literally a summer rain storm. That is it. When you see a warm storm cloud, that psychic presence is Thorr. He can send his lightning (his hammer), and can make the water choppy when you are trying to fish. But that is pretty much it. The Norse felt its summer lightning scared away the dangerous winter frost spirits, so the psychic presence of summer rain seems protective and honorable.</p><p></p><p>Thorr is only an actual storm. There is no abstraction of storms, like there is with Zeus in Greek polytheism, where there is a ‘god’ who controls storms. Thor is the storm cloud itself. Similarly, a waterfall spirit is the actual waterfall itself. When someone throws food into a waterfall, the waterfall itself can taste the food.</p><p></p><p>Compare the Norse thunder spirit to the thunder spirit that certain Native American tribes remember. The ‘thunderbird’ is an animistic nature spirit. It isnt a ‘god’ in any way. </p><p></p><p>‘Across many North American indigenous cultures, the thunderbird carries many of the same characteristics. It is described as a large bird, capable of creating storms and thundering while it flies. Clouds are pulled together by its wingbeats, the sound of thunder made by its wings clapping, sheet lightning the light flashing from its eyes when it blinks, and individual lightning bolts made by the glowing snakes that it carries around with it.’ (Wikipedia)</p><p></p><p>This American animistic culture perceives the nature spirit as a kind of bird, but in ways weirdly similar to how the Norse animistic culture perceives the nature spirit as a kind of warrior. But note, the Norse animistic culture describes the nature spirit of the arctic winter storm as a kind of bird, whose wings fan deadly blizzards.</p><p></p><p>I read how upset a certain tribe became when a roleplaying game made the mistake of representing the nature spirit as if a ‘thunder god’. I had to smirk because such misrepresentation is annoying. I can get equally annoyed when people misrepresent Norse traditions. Heh, I especially get annoyed when certain German academics seem to think *our* Norse texts should be forced to fit *their* German culture.</p><p></p><p>A telling feature of this Norse animism is, humans are also one of the nature spirits. Menn (humans), Alfar, Aesir, Vanir, Dvergar, and Jotnar are all equally nature spirits coexisting in this world. Just like humans have psychic presences, so do sunlight (Alfar), rocks (Dvergar), skies (Aesir), coastlands (Vanir), mountains (Risar) and glaciers (Thursar). Humans are one of these aspects of nature, and all of these aspects of nature interrelate like persons like humans do.</p><p></p><p>When Vikings hold a celebration in honor of the Alfar, this dinner party is like inviting a human friend to a birthday party. They arent ‘worshiping’ their friend, they are showing hospitality, by hosting a party for their friend.</p><p></p><p>Polytheism is a vertical relationship.</p><p></p><p>Animism is horizontal.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Yaarel, post: 6642242, member: 58172"] LOL, the way D&D presents Norse belief is so ignorant, it hurts to read. At least, the 5e PH has the decency to say: ‘The .. Norse pantheons are [B]fantasy interpretations[/B] of historical religions from our world’s ancient times .. [B]for use in a D&D game[/B], [B]divorced from their historical context[/B] .. that [B]serve the needs of the game[/B].’ D&D has never tried to represent Norse belief accurately. Gygax intentionally misrepresented the beliefs of other cultures, blending them with other cultures plus silly creative whims. I am from Norway. I read the Eddas in Norse, and am reasonably familiar with the current academic research concerning it. My dad is a historian of the Viking Era. The academics in Norway are in consensus, the Norse are animists. No priests, not temples, no worship. The Vikings related to the nature spirits in approximately the same way that later Scandinavians related to trolls. This is animism. There were some polytheists in Denmark, under the influence of the Germans who were polytheists because of the Roman influence. A royal dynasty from Denmark brought their polytheism to Uppsala in Sweden. Altho this royal family was polytheistic, its influence was limited. In the previous two centuries, much of the research into Scandinavians was done by German academics. The old Germans were polytheists. When these academics read Norse texts, they were less interested in understanding Norse culture, and more interested in trying to reconstruct German polytheism. But German culture is nonidentical with Norse culture. Norse are animists. Take for example, Thorr, the ‘thunderer’. He is a nature spirit. He is literally a summer rain storm. That is it. When you see a warm storm cloud, that psychic presence is Thorr. He can send his lightning (his hammer), and can make the water choppy when you are trying to fish. But that is pretty much it. The Norse felt its summer lightning scared away the dangerous winter frost spirits, so the psychic presence of summer rain seems protective and honorable. Thorr is only an actual storm. There is no abstraction of storms, like there is with Zeus in Greek polytheism, where there is a ‘god’ who controls storms. Thor is the storm cloud itself. Similarly, a waterfall spirit is the actual waterfall itself. When someone throws food into a waterfall, the waterfall itself can taste the food. Compare the Norse thunder spirit to the thunder spirit that certain Native American tribes remember. The ‘thunderbird’ is an animistic nature spirit. It isnt a ‘god’ in any way. ‘Across many North American indigenous cultures, the thunderbird carries many of the same characteristics. It is described as a large bird, capable of creating storms and thundering while it flies. Clouds are pulled together by its wingbeats, the sound of thunder made by its wings clapping, sheet lightning the light flashing from its eyes when it blinks, and individual lightning bolts made by the glowing snakes that it carries around with it.’ (Wikipedia) This American animistic culture perceives the nature spirit as a kind of bird, but in ways weirdly similar to how the Norse animistic culture perceives the nature spirit as a kind of warrior. But note, the Norse animistic culture describes the nature spirit of the arctic winter storm as a kind of bird, whose wings fan deadly blizzards. I read how upset a certain tribe became when a roleplaying game made the mistake of representing the nature spirit as if a ‘thunder god’. I had to smirk because such misrepresentation is annoying. I can get equally annoyed when people misrepresent Norse traditions. Heh, I especially get annoyed when certain German academics seem to think *our* Norse texts should be forced to fit *their* German culture. A telling feature of this Norse animism is, humans are also one of the nature spirits. Menn (humans), Alfar, Aesir, Vanir, Dvergar, and Jotnar are all equally nature spirits coexisting in this world. Just like humans have psychic presences, so do sunlight (Alfar), rocks (Dvergar), skies (Aesir), coastlands (Vanir), mountains (Risar) and glaciers (Thursar). Humans are one of these aspects of nature, and all of these aspects of nature interrelate like persons like humans do. When Vikings hold a celebration in honor of the Alfar, this dinner party is like inviting a human friend to a birthday party. They arent ‘worshiping’ their friend, they are showing hospitality, by hosting a party for their friend. Polytheism is a vertical relationship. Animism is horizontal. [/QUOTE]
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