Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8252258" data-attributes="member: 93670">On the first part probably not because so much of what casters do is things other than damage spells & there are spell slots first through ninth level.  If you want to talk damage alone though ithose twostarts out at 2.666_d6/slot level as 8d6 third level spells & adds +1d6 per after that.  By comparison sneak attack can be used every round at no limited resource cost beyond the need to attack also scales at the same +1d6/2 character levels but can add strength or dex  at least once per round and +1d6 or +2d6 depending on if dual wielding or not if they self restrict to short swords. Fireball & lightning bolt get all the attention because they are one of the few spells that are at least close to reasonable at base level but the math for at will & most spells is abhorrent & you can see that drawn out step by step along with a spreadsheet link <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/fireball.679370/post-8245955" target="_blank">here</a> showing where a generic d12 cantrip plus a couple leveled spells stacks up to various weapon users..  I'm not sure what the "start & end point" means  since I mostly skipped 4e  & don't know if that's a reference to old style bouncing lightning bolts or not.  When it's all said & done there are a few things that add up to be big problems for casters that fireball & lightning bolt just happen to sidestep enough to keep up in that one pillar of their abilities.  For their part the nondamage spells tend to be written as if they are part of a game where the rankings for at will & spike damage by class are inverted<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[spoiler="lack of meaningful specialization"]If  a caster wants to specialize as a glass cannon type or really any other type of caster there are no meaningful options for them between class archetype feat & to a degree even magic items other than charged spell wands available for accomplishing that.  Yes there are ways to get +attribute mod to spells or cantrips meeting various conditions but that's literally just  getting the benefit granted to every weapon user before even considering race/class/feat/etc choices that add to those weapon attacks.[/spoiler]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[spoiler="martials are multiplicitive without cost"]Wotc removed the penalty for second/third/etc attack to make them basically as guaranteed as the first causing them to reliably multiply everything  each round while casters rarely multiply anything of meaning & almost never more than one round worth if they do save a few exceptions.[/spoiler]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[spoiler="casters lack solid support for other roles  in the spells list"]Concentration is massively overused & often pointlessly attached to spells that are already self limiting in multiple ways as if they were instead cranked to 11.  This is especially problematic for nondamage spells that go from being almost good to flat out <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/guide-to-cruddy-spells-v1-01.679077/" target="_blank">cruddy</a>  & denies casters an especially meaningful alternate pillar involving nondamage options.  You can see that easily by looking at the scorn bordering on outright contempt for the glass cannon idea over better options in the old <a href="http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1570.0" target="_blank">3.5 god wizard guide</a>.[/spoiler]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[spoiler="WotC is fighting the problems of a different edition & ignoring how this one works even while writing it"]Wotc designs everything against some faulty whiteroom what if where fighters never get magic weapons then never considers what happens when they do & go out of their way making every effort to make sure that the martials are as likely as possible to trivially obtain magic weapons.  This one is really what makes everything else so difficult since it affects spells themselves, magic items, magic item availability, & critically so many aspects of monster design[spoiler="To show how reprehensible this is, here's advice from 3 different 5e sources on the matter"][ATTACH=full]135848[/ATTACH][/spoiler][/spoiler]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[spoiler="spells that once started poor & became great over time just stay bad"]Because of that last point most spells are absolute trash unused by design.  In previous editions a caster might go through spell options in the book from time to time seeing if things jump out as a meaningful option they passed on before now that they are higher caster level & have whatever expecting a reasonable chance of coming across broadly useful options.  In 5e the odds are near zero[/spoiler]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Finally there's this ↓</li> </ul>Wow that's a pretty bold way of missing the point.  Before I fully respond, you are claiming that the third level spell duo fireball &lightning bolt are not only the only spells a caster needs but also that blasting is the only meaningful role that a caster should bother with or that the mere presence of those two spells excuses any amount of bad design in the other 300something spells that are often each trying tocombat rampant unchecked lfqw alongside monster design attempting to do the same without stopping to notice that 5e inverts LFQW into LWQF & LWQF .  Thanks for providing an example of why a couple good enough spells atop a pile of unused by design & almost but not really good spells is so problematic in a  ways that makes doing anything about it such a sisyphean task.  So much of what casters do is the nondamage stuff while that nondamage stuff is hamstrung by the faulty assumption that LFQW is still a serious thing present in 5e.</blockquote>

Verification