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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8252954" data-attributes="member: 93670">Looking at your level 1, 27*3.5=84, that's a short sword not a 2 handed sword & the fighter apparently started with 10 strength.  A greatsword is 2d6=average7 while a 2 handed longsword would be 4.5.  are you really going to compare fighter with shortsword who dumps strength in a damage comparison  or was there an oversight?  Doing things like estimating number of rounds spent attacking per level only serves to obfuscate the already questionable.  The attempt at math is nice but your really far off,  <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/fireball.679370/post-8245955" target="_blank">this</a> should help you a bitOne round averages will look like this.  Fighters get an ASI at 4 6 8 12 14 16 & 19<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Greatsword (avg 2x3.5)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+3=10</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+4)=22 [awwww... a level 5 fighter with a starting greatsword is a crippling two points behind toll the dead cast by a level 20 spellcaster, fighters are sooooo oppressed by those quadratic wizards in 5e]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+5)=36 [this is above the level  20 toll the dead by 10 points but nine levels earlier]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+5=48</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add GWM & get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+3=20</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+4)=42</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+5)=66</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+5=88</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add a +1 greatsword & the numbers look like this, I'm doing the whole array since when that weapon is obtained is up for grabs & they can further improve on it<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+4=11</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+5)=24</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+6)=39[this is above the level  20 toll the dead by 13 points but nine levels earlier]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+6=52</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add GWM & get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+4=21</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+5)=44</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+6)=69[</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+6=92</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Upgrade to a +2 greatsword & you get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5=12</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6)=26[this is identical to that level 20 toll the dead but fifteen levels earlier]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7)=42</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=56</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add GWM & get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5=222</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6)=46[this is identical to that level 20 toll the dead but fifteen levels earlier]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7)=72</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=96</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Upgrade that+2 with something like [spoiler="this"][ATTACH=full]135891[/ATTACH][/spoiler] obtained from the cr11 trogar steelfist in chapter 3 of descent unto avernus & you get this<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5+3.5 fire=15.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6+3.5 fire)=33 [this is above the level  20 toll the dead by 5 points]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7+3.5 fire)=52.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=70</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add GWM & get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.2d6+5+3.5 fire=25.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(2d6+6+3.5 fire)=53 [this is above the level  20 toll the dead by 5 points]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+7+3.5 fire)=92.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(2d6+7=110</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[spoiler="here's all that with a one handed 1d8 longsword & shield"] [/spoiler]</li> </ul>[spoiler="here's all that with a one handed 1d8 longsword & shield"]....<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1 handed longsword(avg4.5) & shield</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.1d8+3=7.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+4)=17</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(1d8+5)=28.5 [this is above the level  20 toll the dead by 10 points but nine levels earlier]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+5)=38</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add a +1 greatsword & the numbers look like this, I'm doing the whole array since when that weapon is obtained is up for grabs & they can further improve on it<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.1d8+4=8.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+5)=19</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(2d6+6)=31.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+6=42</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Upgrade to a +2 greatsword & you get<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:.1d8+5=9.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+6)=21</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(1d8+7)=34.5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+7=46</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Upgrade that+2 with something like [spoiler="this"][ATTACH=full]135891[/ATTACH][/spoiler] obtained from the cr11 trogar steelfist in chapter 3 of descent unto avernus & you get this<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1-4 Start with 16 strength:1d8+5+3.5 fire=13</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5-10 Jump to 18 strength:. 2*(1d8+6+3.5 fire)=30</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">11-19 easily 20 strength by now: 3*(1d8+7+3.5 fire)=45</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">20 still 20 strength: 4*(1d8+7=60</li> </ul></li> </ul>[/spoiler]The quadratic fighter comes into play in that any gains in weapon mods from both strength along the weapon itself is multiplicative.  You need only look at the maximized disintegrate/meteor storm comparisons I linked earlier to see just how extreme this gets where casters never pull ahead in a meaningful fashion and they  have nondamage spells all self hamstrung everywhichway  as if they were far ahead in damage.For comparison here's what happens to the damage that level 20 toll the dead cantrip you brought up before and after adding a <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/wand-of-the-war-mage" target="_blank">+3 wand of the warmage</a>Before: 4d12=4*(6.5)=26After: 4d12=4*(6.5+0)=26I'm pretty sure I don't need to illustrate the lower tiers[USER=2525]@Mistwell[/USER] ahh on the lines.  I noted on the lich earlier that it was pure coincidence just picking a practically stereotypical bbeg+minions assortment.  The initial goal was to show the getting stuck thing & by coincidence stumbled into the others by accident figuring I'd need to make others to show distance troubleswithout even trying.  The resist+legendary resist was just an added bonus on top of the problem I wanted to showEdit: also any time the fighter pops action surge it doubles whatever they had going that round for huge spike damage that recharges on a short rest & compares absurdly well against leveled spell burn that itself is not usually that far ahead of the fighter's at will</blockquote>

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