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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 180448" data-attributes="member: 2486">KaeYoss: Firstly, I'm afraid you haven't actually addressed my primary point: that of if one allows metamagic feats, then why not allow combat-orientated feats.  It may seem slightly blunt, but a feat is a feat.  If metamagic is allowed for the purpose of the spell, then why should combat feats be prevented for the purpose of the attack enhanced by LW.  Yet I hope that we would both agree that using Power Critical and an automatic hit from LW is ostensibly more powerful than simply an automatic hit.  Therefore, it seems that one cannot disallow one breed of feat whilst permitted an alternative breed of feat.  Yet by the logic presented, there is nothing to stop this, and you have not explicitly dealt with this point.  Essentially, would you allow an automatic hit WITH Power Critical (a feat)?  If not, then the logic behind the permissal of metamagic is flawed.  If you would, then I would assert that you place too much power upon LW.The second salient point, with regard to power level, is a good one, but against I would disagree.  The usage of a Maximised 3rd level spell is indeed more powerful than a 6th level spell for the simple reason that one requires a feat for the former in addition to a 6th level slot, whereas the latter merely requires the slot.  If the two were equally powerful, the Maximise Spell would be a redundant feat.  I for one would perceive a Maximised Spell to be of arguably greater than a spell of corresponding power: take Chain Lightning vs. Maximised Fireball.  The former does d6/level to primary target and half that to secondary targets; the latter does a flat 60 damage (as one would need to be at least 10th level to cast it).  At 11th level, MF does a clear amount more damage (60 vs. 11d6 (average 38.5)) to even CL's primary target.  The lower save mitigates the power advantage, but bearing in mind that CL's secondary victims take half of the lesser damage, CL pales in comparison to MF.  Even at 20th level, when CL does average 70 damage to its primary target, it does a mere 35 to secondary targets; MF does a clean 60 to all: assuming you have more than one target then MF is more powerful in absolute terms.  Thus, I would argue that a metamagicked spell of equivalent slot to a spell is actually more power than a normal spell of that slot- certainly for damaging spells (non-damaging spells tend to be less so).  Thus, the power level is greater and hence the boundaries of LW do not extend thus far.The flaw in my latter point is that it is taken to the outer limit of LW's power anyway: by this logic a metamagicked 5th level slot is permissible, as it is less powerful than a standard 6th level slot.  However, even if the latter point is perhaps self-defeating, then it wins an exemption.  Yet the fundamental objection comes from my primary point.  I look forward to your doubtlessly informed and intelligent response <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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