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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5491570" data-attributes="member: 87792">Cleave is a level 1 fighter at will exploit.  Tide of Iron is a level 1 fighter at will exploit.  They are exactly the same this way - or can you simply not see more than one way to drive someone back?  Why are you penalising the one but not the other?  From a position of experience with 4e this is arbitrary inconsistancy.  Pointless, annoying, and arbitrarily painful. And the rest of us have pointed out why the original poster does not know what he is talking about. In short it is a penalty to the power.I'm saying that a 4e round represents six seconds.  The exploit represents the aggregate of what you are doing over the course of those six seconds.  Your "spamming cross strikes" is missing the point. I don't know.  Why do you think that your description has any damn thing to do with either swordfights or games?  It is a self-limiting problem with one person suggesting solutions that can make people literally unable to attack.Have you ever read the 4e monster manuals?  A hell of a lot of brutes and minions only have one at will power.  That doesn't mean that a mummy always uses its rotting grasp one way. What is this "Normal Attack" you are talking about?What you are saying is not hard to grasp.  It's just that you have singularly failed to grasp the way 4e powers work.  I am trying to explain. And this has precisely nothing to do with 6 second combat rounds and 4e powers. Where in Tide Of Iron does it ever say you are getting hit by the shield?  Nowhere, that's where.  One obvious way to Tide of Iron is to advance behind the shield so that there simply isn't room for the enemy to fight round the shield unless he steps back.  And this actually works in real combat.  Another way is to push with the shield.  A further way is to funnel and bully.  You have somehow made up out of thin air the idea that just because you are using a shield to advance it means you have to hit your foe.In which case, Tide of Iron is already mixing things up in the way you want by your understanding.  Give the defenders the +2 because you are coming at them with the same sword every attack.  That makes one hell of a lot more sense than your understanding where with Tide of Iron you do sword damage (not shield damage) and then push them with the shield.  With most attacks the sword is constant.  In Tide of Iron you are already mixing things up with sword and shield.So.  Apparenly you penalise people for coming in with a sword every time they want to attack and knowing that's coming.  Do people in your campaigns carry a golf bag of weapons?  And switch weapons every four rounds or you penalise them?  Because that is what you need to do to have consistency to penalise them for repeatedly using Tide of Iron.This.  Very much this.  4e is effects based - and the at wills outline your approach.And that's part of the reason that Bard At Will is I think the favourite of every single Bard player <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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