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Limits of Miracle spell to turn tide of battle
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<blockquote data-quote="phindar" data-source="post: 3456038" data-attributes="member: 37198"><p>All good questions. I don't really have any answers for you, but I did glance over the spell and I have a few more questions:</p><p></p><p>The spell description states that it can swing: "the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting." Does the use of the term "raising" imply that it will <em>Raise Dead</em> on fallen allies, because that doesn't sound that great. And if by "raising" they meant <em>Resurrection</em>, why use the term "raise"? And if you are resurrecting multiple people, are you on the hook for the xp cost of the individual resurrections, or is this considered a 5000xp general use of the spell?</p><p></p><p>To quote Rev. Lovejoy, "Short answer 'Yes' with a 'But', long answer 'No' with a 'Maybe'." Or maybe I have that backwards, but its probably not important.</p><p></p><p>On the "utterly" destroyed undead, I'd rule that they're gone. As a general rule, dead undead are pretty darn dead. (As a rule.) That is they've been dusted, so you're looking at a <em>Wish</em> spell to get a body and a <em>Resurrection</em> spell to return it to life, at which point you have a healthy guy who you'd have to kill and animate again. I've never really thought about it, but its a lot of work to bring vampires back. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd say all, but I gotta be all hyper-literal and assume it <em>Raise Deads</em> all those that fell, and you got to burn another Mass Heal to get them back up to their fighting weight. Which is immaterial in the case of undead, since they can't be <em>Raised</em>. (<em>Edit:</em> It also seems pretty presumptuous to assume that raising dead comrades will turn the tide of the battle. It might <em>raise</em> them, but they might just get killed all over again. Wanted to throw that out there, that <em>miracling</em> a turn in the tide of the battle is one thing, <em>raising</em> everybody is another. They aren't necessarily linked.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd vote yes. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Used "this way", depends on how you mean. It wouldn't <em>Raise</em> said vampire, but you could <em>Miracle</em> up a <em>Harm</em> for the vampire. It's kind of a waste of a slot, since the evil cleric can probably just cast <em>Harm</em>, but if you were desperate you could do it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If you interpret <em>Miracle's</em> "raise" ability as <em>Raise Dead</em>, then no. Even if you interpret it as <em>Resurrection</em>, its still no because it would restore the creatures to "life". Having <em>Miracle</em> simply replace everybody on the battlemat at full strength seems beyond the ability of the spell, which is an important point as <em>Miracle</em> and <em>Wish</em> are spells the party likely has access to as well. Off the top of my head, I'd think it would be something a deity could do on its home plane where it has total control of reality, but its not something the D&D spell system can accomplish. Typically, the only undead you can bring back after dusting are ones with a special ability relating to it. Liches spring to mind. Everybody else is just a Kansas lyric. </p><p></p><p>All that said, the evil cleric could <em>Miracle</em> up an escape for him and the gassy vampire, and return at another time. Or if that smacks of anti-climaticism, he could <em>Miracle</em> up the nastiest 8th level attack spell he can and try to retributive strike the party as his dying action. I don't see a <em>Mass Harm</em> spell on the menu, but if there were multiple gaseous vamps, I'd allow it as per the <em>powerful request</em> use of the <em>Miracle</em> spell.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="phindar, post: 3456038, member: 37198"] All good questions. I don't really have any answers for you, but I did glance over the spell and I have a few more questions: The spell description states that it can swing: "the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting." Does the use of the term "raising" imply that it will [i]Raise Dead[/i] on fallen allies, because that doesn't sound that great. And if by "raising" they meant [i]Resurrection[/i], why use the term "raise"? And if you are resurrecting multiple people, are you on the hook for the xp cost of the individual resurrections, or is this considered a 5000xp general use of the spell? To quote Rev. Lovejoy, "Short answer 'Yes' with a 'But', long answer 'No' with a 'Maybe'." Or maybe I have that backwards, but its probably not important. On the "utterly" destroyed undead, I'd rule that they're gone. As a general rule, dead undead are pretty darn dead. (As a rule.) That is they've been dusted, so you're looking at a [i]Wish[/i] spell to get a body and a [i]Resurrection[/i] spell to return it to life, at which point you have a healthy guy who you'd have to kill and animate again. I've never really thought about it, but its a lot of work to bring vampires back. I'd say all, but I gotta be all hyper-literal and assume it [i]Raise Deads[/i] all those that fell, and you got to burn another Mass Heal to get them back up to their fighting weight. Which is immaterial in the case of undead, since they can't be [i]Raised[/i]. ([i]Edit:[/i] It also seems pretty presumptuous to assume that raising dead comrades will turn the tide of the battle. It might [i]raise[/i] them, but they might just get killed all over again. Wanted to throw that out there, that [i]miracling[/i] a turn in the tide of the battle is one thing, [i]raising[/i] everybody is another. They aren't necessarily linked.) I'd vote yes. Used "this way", depends on how you mean. It wouldn't [i]Raise[/i] said vampire, but you could [i]Miracle[/i] up a [i]Harm[/i] for the vampire. It's kind of a waste of a slot, since the evil cleric can probably just cast [i]Harm[/i], but if you were desperate you could do it. If you interpret [i]Miracle's[/i] "raise" ability as [i]Raise Dead[/i], then no. Even if you interpret it as [i]Resurrection[/i], its still no because it would restore the creatures to "life". Having [i]Miracle[/i] simply replace everybody on the battlemat at full strength seems beyond the ability of the spell, which is an important point as [i]Miracle[/i] and [i]Wish[/i] are spells the party likely has access to as well. Off the top of my head, I'd think it would be something a deity could do on its home plane where it has total control of reality, but its not something the D&D spell system can accomplish. Typically, the only undead you can bring back after dusting are ones with a special ability relating to it. Liches spring to mind. Everybody else is just a Kansas lyric. All that said, the evil cleric could [i]Miracle[/i] up an escape for him and the gassy vampire, and return at another time. Or if that smacks of anti-climaticism, he could [i]Miracle[/i] up the nastiest 8th level attack spell he can and try to retributive strike the party as his dying action. I don't see a [i]Mass Harm[/i] spell on the menu, but if there were multiple gaseous vamps, I'd allow it as per the [i]powerful request[/i] use of the [i]Miracle[/i] spell. [/QUOTE]
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