lingering high jump

[Bad Paper]

If I am left hanging in midair at the end of a round that I am jumping (say, over a chasm that is longer than my remaining move), then I'm just...hanging there, right? I don't fall because if my jump check is long enough for me to keep going, then it is split across the round boundary.

What if I do that with a high jump?

I have a move action left, so I do a high jump (whether standing or running, depending on circumstances), and then...can I choose to place the round-boundary under the jump, so that I am airborne in between rounds? It's a poor man's levitate, and could keep me out of reach of bad guys (AoO for the jump notwithstanding).

The aim here is to force the bad guys to jump to me to attack me, essentially depriving them of full-attack actions.

 

[Cabled]

If you could manage to jump high enough, then I suppose following the rules for long jumping, your plan would work. Your enemies will probably just ready an action to strike you as soon as you're back in reach though...you do still come back down

 

[Deset Gled]

Whether or not falling counts as movement is a debated topic. Hovering after a high jump is an artifact of ruling that falling counts as movement. Remember that you're automatically limiting yourself to a standard action on your next turn - you have to take a move action to fall before you do anything else. So this doesn't only stop enemies from getting full attacks on you, it stops you from getting full attacks on them. Overall, I think that's not unbalanced, just annoying.

 

[FatherTome]

The rules are a bit fuzzy on how jump interacts with the combat system.

For example, it seems like you should theoretically be able to jump and attack a flying target if your jump check is high enough. But there is little in the rules to support this:

First, jumping is not a separate action, but part of movement (like using the Move Silently skill). Second, if your jump check is high enough that your movement for the round cannot complete it, you stay hanging in mid-air and complete your jump on your next turn.

For example, a monk with a movement of 70' is trying to jump a chasm 30' wide. He moves 50' to the edge of the chasm and succeeds on his jump DC of 30 to clear the chasm, but only has 20' left of movement. He ends his turn 20' across the chasm, 10' from the edge, in mid-air and MUST spend a move action at the beginning of his next turn to complete his movement.

However, let's take the example of a creature flying 15' in the air above a Medium-sized Human Monk without reach. The Monk has a vertical reach of 8' according to the DMG, but for attack purposes can reach something that is flying 5' (one square) above the ground, since his 5' reach means he can hit something one square in any direction.

So, the Monk has to make up a difference of 10' in his jump check in order to be able to reach the creature flying 15' up. A standing 10' high jump is a whopping DC 80 without a running start, or DC 40 with, without any other applicable feats or abilities. Assuming the Monk takes a running jump and can make the jump check to be able to reach, there remains no way under the rules for any character to be able to attack mid-jump short of spring attack, shot on the run, or any of the feats that allow you to move and attack as part of a single action.

Here's the logic: First, charging is generally out because you must charge in a straight line to the target which precludes any running start for a high jump. If your jump check is excessively large, you could make the DC 80 check and charge straight up, but you'd still be spending your next turn's move action to fall back to the ground. At a sufficient distance, it is possible to hit a flying target with a sufficiently large long jump - the DC is actually the same as a high jump to hit the same target, since you need a jump with a horizontal distance of four times the vertical distance you are trying to reach. To reach 10 feet up, in other words, you need to jump 40 feet and you reach the 10 foot vertical height 20 feet into your jump.

While you are not really moving in a straight line towards your target, you could probably convince your DM to let you pull this off, if for no other reason than to cause the neglected jump skill to actually have an occasional use for bagging low-height flyers. However, you still have to finish up your jump with a move action on your next turn.

Without using the charge action, however, it is nearly impossible for any creature who is not flying or falling involuntarily to attack a flying target. Any movement intended to bring you within reach of the target does not allow you to make an attack before you are forced to complete your movement. Certain exceptions exist: Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit both allow you to circumstantially make an attack of opportunity against any target who makes an attack against you, so you could jump through threatened squares and hope that you provoke your opponent into attacking you so that you can attack, but this is somewhat contrived and probably not worth the effort.

Spring attack, however. renders the technical problems inherent in the attempt moot: You can move both before and after your attack, so as long as you can make the jump check to move yourself to a square where you can attack your opponent, you are free to jump, attack, and land all in one action.

Offhand, I can't think of any other means by which a character can make a standard melee attack against a flying target. Mobile Spellcaster(/ing?) allows you to cast a spell and move as part of the same standard action, so you could theoretically jump and hit a flying target with a touch spell, and I'm sure there's a couple more unusual circumstances if anyone more knowledgeable would care to point them about, but according to RAW Spring Attack is the only way to consistently pull off the trick of jumping to hit a flying target.

The point I'm attempting to make, therefore, is that there is marginal tactical benefit while attempting to jump out of reach of an opponent. While technically possible, you would have to use up your movement for the round in such a way that you would end your total movement for the round in mid-air - you can't voluntarily sacrifice some of your movement to stop in mid-air during a jump. Since you will be sacrificing one move action every round for the express purpose of finishing your jump, you will need spring attack in order to do anything but move if you are trying to keep this jumping manuever up every round.

However, bear in mind by the time you can make a DC 40 jump check with any regularity (the minimum DC of a running jump you would need to be out of the standing reach of a Medium or Small sized creature without reach weapons) such tactics are probably going to be ineffective. Since you're effectively taking yourself out of the fight, those few enemies that can't affect you in some way will probably just focus on the rest of your party while you're doing your Tigger impression, and the rest of the enemies probably either have reach, ranged weapons, or spells with which they can reach you.

At the very least, if you're performing a high jump and end your movement in mid-air, enemies can move into the square directly underneath you and force you to drop prone when you land. (Two Small or larger sized creatures cannot both occupy the same square unless they are grappling, and any creature which is forced to move into a square another creature is occupying must drop prone and cannot stand until they move out of the square.)

So, yes, according to RAW you can avoid attacks by jumping and ending your movement in mid-air. However, the DC is prohibitive and it is of dubious utility.

 

[Ilium]

And if the enemy is determined, it won't even help. Instead of readying an action, they'll just delay their initiative until after you come down.

 

[shilsen]

Now the important question is, if enemies move below you and ready spears, how much damage do you take on the way down ?

 

[moritheil]

The rules are a bit fuzzy on how jump interacts with the combat system.

For example, it seems like you should theoretically be able to jump and attack a flying target if your jump check is high enough. But there is little in the rules to support this:

First, jumping is not a separate action, but part of movement (like using the Move Silently skill). Second, if your jump check is high enough that your movement for the round cannot complete it, you stay hanging in mid-air and complete your jump on your next turn.

Wouldn't that be a charge (combine attack and move?)

 

[skelso]

I wonder if there is a hard rule on whether falling counts as movement.

It seems to me that it must not count as movement. Besides the example of the "poor man's hover", it would also cause some even more ridiculous and unfair examples if the rule is taken to it's logical conclusion.

For example: Suppose a PC with movement of 30' is standing above a hidden trapdoor with a 60' drop. Arch-villain, with hand on lever, gets first initiative and pulls the lever, opening the trapdoor. PC hovers above trapdoor until his initiative, then forfeits his turn so that he can double-move his butt to the bottom of the pit and take 6d6 falling damage.

 

[FatherTome]

Wouldn't that be a charge (combine attack and move?)

I address this later in the post. Charging is the only option available to PCs or monsters without a fly speed or feats that change the way movement interacts with attacks. They still are forced to spend one or more move actions (depending on their base land speed and how high they jumped) to complete their jump.

I wonder if there is a hard rule on whether falling counts as movement.

It seems to me that it must not count as movement. Besides the example of the "poor man's hover", it would also cause some even more ridiculous and unfair examples if the rule is taken to it's logical conclusion.

For example: Suppose a PC with movement of 30' is standing above a hidden trapdoor with a 60' drop. Arch-villain, with hand on lever, gets first initiative and pulls the lever, opening the trapdoor. PC hovers above trapdoor until his initiative, then forfeits his turn so that he can double-move his butt to the bottom of the pit and take 6d6 falling damage.

This is not an example of "voluntary movement". The mechanics of jump are very specific in regards to what happens when a jump check is completed but there isn't enough movement left to finish the jump: The PC ends his/her turn in mid-air and must spend actions to complete the jump before he can take any other actions.

This gets ridiculous when dealing with unreasonably high jump checks, however. There was an example on the Wizards (now Gleemax) forums some time ago that demonstrated how an ECL 20 Thri-Kreen monk could obtain a ridiculously high jump check - I don't remember offhand, but let's say, for the sake of argument, that it was +400. A monk, with land speed of 70', who decides to perform a 400-foot jump, will spend three full turns completing the jump (total distance is at least 420', counting the 20' run-up, and it would take 6 move actions to come up with a total distance of equal to or greater than 420', or three turns). During this time the monk reaches a height of 100' at the midpoint of his jump, and unless he is somehow prevented from completing his movement (by running into a wall of force, or having some sort of barrier put up to impede his progress), he can take no actions except to complete his jump.

Ordinarily, in earth gravity, a creature which is at rest and then falls for six seconds travels a total distance of approximately 550 feet after the first six seconds. The monk takes nine seconds (three actions) to reach a height of 100 feet, but then takes another nine seconds (the other three actions) to descent that same 100 feet again. This actually grows slightly more surreal as a creature with extraordinarily low land speed (for example, 10') will take two full minutes to make the same jump, and will gently float through the air while doing so.

The mental image this provides is not unlike the prodigiously graceful leaps from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

That same creature, however, when confronted with a pit trap and having failed the appropriate Reflex save, will plummet like the proverbial boulder and drop ~550', or hit the bottom if the pit is mercifully shallower.

To reference your trapdoor example again, this is an example of involuntary movement. A jump check is voluntary movement. A PC (or NPC, or monster) does not spend movement when moved involuntarily. A flying creature blown back by a wind effect, a creature bull rushed, etc., do not count the distance moved as part of their movement limit for the round. Falling doesn't take an action. Jumping, however, is voluntary movement and costs actions to perform.


As an aside, some types of involuntary movement do not provoke attacks of opportunity - one example is the Improved Grab special ability, which moves the grappled opponent into the attacker's space, rather than the normal order of things where the attacker moves into the opponent's space during a grapple. On the other hand, Bull Rush explicitly states that the opponent provokes attacks of opportunity when he is pushed back.

Jumping down from a height is a special jump action which, according to the rules, is a DC 15 jump check - this is a check to reduce the damage taken from a fall. If a character is attempting to jump a long distance (for example, off the edge of a chasm to a lower cave on the other side) he still needs to make a separate jump check in order to determine whether he clears the distance - the DC 15 "jump from a height" skill check simply determines whether he takes less damage (or none) from the fall. This is voluntary movement and follows the rules above, including the "strange floating man" syndrome for very high jump checks combined with low land speeds. Note that even if it takes two minutes for a PC to jump a distance that includes landing 100 feet lower, the PC still takes falling damage appropriate to the height.

On the other hand, it's possible to jump down a height without making a check besides the DC 15 check to reduce the damage. This is voluntary movement up until the PC steps off the wall/cliff/chasm, at which point the PC falls the remaining distance (or 550', whichever is smaller if you're using that rule). It's probably recommended for the DM to say that this also renders the PC prone, since they did not make a jump check to move the distance, unless they have a feat/magical effect that says otherwise, and probably also ends the PC's turn.

This is to prevent PCs from taking a 5' step off a cliff, falling 550' feet, landing next to a monster, and full attacking.

Much of this is subject to debate, however, and this is simply my opinion of how the mechanics work. It is probably better to rule on a case-by-case basis and use some common sense (for example, with pit traps and the Looney Toons-esque image of Wile E. Coyote hanging above a cliff before his turn comes up in the initiative order and he falls to the canyon floor below).


... It occurs to me that I probably need some sleep.

Anyways, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[skelso]

It's my understanding that making a jump check is a standard action. You don't have to take a move action first, but it does lower the DC. It doesn't really matter if your jump check is somehow so astronomically high that you could leap 1000' feet. Whatever the result of your jump check, you can leap up to that far as a standard action. Since it's only a standard action, if you did not move first, then you've still got a move action left to mount your horse. You'd have to wait until next turn to ride off into the sunset, though.

Still, I wonder how a monk with a speed of 70' could pull off a 400' long jump. Suppose you have a 12th level monk with a strength of 18, a speed of 70' and 15 ranks in jump. He takes his 70' running start and jumps. His best possible check would be 55'. That's a total movement of only 125' (but 70' of that was a move action and 55' was part of his jump standard action) that's a lot less than his potential run speed of 280'.