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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aaron L" data-source="post: 3394822" data-attributes="member: 926">Thank you for putting in better terms something I was trying to get across.  Being attractive DOES NOT cause a character have a high Charisma; having a high Charisma causes a character to be attractive. Charisma in D&D goes by the classical definition, divine grace, mystical favor, and the like, IN ADDITION to the modern sense of the word; forceful presence, charm, persnal magnetism, etc.  1 and 2E Paladins didn't need a 17 Charisma because they had to be pretty or be charming; they needed a 17 Charisma because it represented a high level of divine favor.  3E Sorcerers don't get bonus spells because they are pretty or make pleasant company; they get them because they have a string connection to the mystical powers of the universe.This is fantasy.  Having a high Charisma, a divine grace or a powerful mystic potential, is expressed physically by being granted the bonus of being pretty.  In other words; in this brand of fantasy the beauty of the soul can shine through and be reflected in a characters physical appearance.    Beauty DOES NOT grant high Charisma.  High Charisma grants beauty.      A Sorcerers spells, and a Paladins aura of grace, and a Cleric's ability to turn undead are not a result of a forceful personality OR good looks.  They are a result of a characters connection to the divine, or the mystic, or whatever you want to call it; Charisma in it's classic sense.  So, neither the meek beauty nor the forceful homely character is getting bonus spells from either their looks or their personality.  They're getting them from yet another aspect of Charisma.  Good looks or personal magnetism are a side benefit to the mystical/divine connection that Charisma represents; it's the beauty and power of the character's soul shining through to be seen by the outside world on their face, and can shine though in many different ways; one characters beauty, another's charm, and yet another's leadership qualities.Of course, a character's appearance is dictated by what the player wants (as it always should be), so a character with a high Charisma doesn't HAVE to be beautiful, anymore than a beautiful character HAVE to have a high Charisma; beauty is just one possible benefit of Charisma.  But a character with a high Charisma DOES need to have one of these qualities, just as a character with a high Strength needs to be able to lift heavy things, or break down doors, or swing a sword well.  As I said before, ALL of the stats represent several disparate yet related attributes.  Why make this one special case for Charisma having one of it's components removed?  And why stop there?  Should we go the 2E Skills & Powers route and divide every stat into multiple substats?  (which, actually, I wouldn't be against, I kind of liked that idea; but not JUST for Charisma alone) Should we go the Palladium route and have a Physical Beauty stat?  I'm not seeing any benefit to this special case separation of Charisma from beauty when every other stat could be divided up as well.      I forget where they are all at the moment, but I've seen many Luck based feats and powers that run off of Charisma for exactly the same reason; divine favor, oneness with the universe, mystic potential, etc.        The DC Heroes game handles it well, and in the same manner as D&D.  In it, a characters active Mystical stats, which dictate how magically powerful a character can be, also reflect strength of personality.  It's to represent the mysterious, mystical, semi-divine nature of the special quality of Sapience, which is even now not really understood (called a spark of divinity in far too many fantasy settings and mythologies to list here).  So in fantasy games like D&D, sapience is translated into a mystical and/or divine quality, it's called a Soul, and numerically represented by the Charisma stat.</blockquote>

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