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<blockquote data-quote="phindar" data-source="post: 3399248" data-attributes="member: 37198">Well, the problem I have is that DEX determines gracefulness (to a lesser extent than skills, but still) whereas I don't think any link exists between a character's appearance and his CHA.&nbsp; If a character wanted to play an Inspector Clouseau type who seems elegant but still regularly manages to fall down stairs and fail the majority of his DEX based rolls, I really don't see the big deal.Its been asked why I object to CHA defining two unrelated things (personality and appearance) but not to DEX covering motor skills and balance.&nbsp; Motor skills and balance may not be related, but they do relate to DEX as it is written in the game.&nbsp; (To divide them, you'd have to create another ability so that one could cover Sleight of Hand while the other covered Tumbling.&nbsp; Or you could make a character with a 6 DEX, but 15 ranks in Balance, he'd be graceful, but lack fine motor skills.) Appearance, on the other hand, I see as Fluff and not only separate from personality, but separate from CHA as a game concept.&nbsp; I don't think your casting stat or your Turn Attempts per day should be related to how you look.&nbsp; And there seems to be no shortage of high CHA people in the real world who are dogs, or low CHA people who are models.&nbsp; (A supermodel who is not a talented platoon commander doesn't seem to be that far outside the norm, for example.)&nbsp; So its pretty easy for me to buy the idea that CHA is not dependent on beauty, nor is beauty dependent on CHA.&nbsp; To me, that's the same as saying they aren't linked.&nbsp; The point I'm trying to clarify is for those that agree beauty and CHA are not dependent on one another, but still say they're linked.&nbsp; If for instance CHA can make a character beautiful, but so can INT, WIS, STR, CON, DEX or any nebulous factor we choose, if the player can simply say, &quot;My character is good-looking&quot; without any qualifier at all, in what way does being good-looking rely on CHA?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="phindar, post: 3399248, member: 37198"] Well, the problem I have is that DEX determines gracefulness (to a lesser extent than skills, but still) whereas I don't think any link exists between a character's appearance and his CHA. If a character wanted to play an Inspector Clouseau type who seems elegant but still regularly manages to fall down stairs and fail the majority of his DEX based rolls, I really don't see the big deal. Its been asked why I object to CHA defining two unrelated things (personality and appearance) but not to DEX covering motor skills and balance. Motor skills and balance may not be related, but they do relate to DEX as it is written in the game. (To divide them, you'd have to create another ability so that one could cover Sleight of Hand while the other covered Tumbling. Or you could make a character with a 6 DEX, but 15 ranks in Balance, he'd be graceful, but lack fine motor skills.) Appearance, on the other hand, I see as Fluff and not only separate from personality, but separate from CHA as a game concept. I don't think your casting stat or your Turn Attempts per day should be related to how you look. And there seems to be no shortage of high CHA people in the real world who are dogs, or low CHA people who are models. (A supermodel who is not a talented platoon commander doesn't seem to be that far outside the norm, for example.) So its pretty easy for me to buy the idea that CHA is not dependent on beauty, nor is beauty dependent on CHA. To me, that's the same as saying they aren't linked. The point I'm trying to clarify is for those that agree beauty and CHA are not dependent on one another, but still say they're linked. If for instance CHA can make a character beautiful, but so can INT, WIS, STR, CON, DEX or any nebulous factor we choose, if the player can simply say, "My character is good-looking" without any qualifier at all, in what way does being good-looking rely on CHA? [/QUOTE]

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