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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9493985" data-attributes="member: 6750235">TBF the OP points out those need additional support from a background and it's about flavor more than mechanics.  If I make a High Elf cleric or druid with a bonus to INT skills like that with the Sage background and choose the Light or Land subclasses there's going to be a good chunk of wizard flavor and spells to work with.Getting off-topic, but I think your impression of Magical Secrets could use some insight.Magic Secrets doesn't give cantrips at all.  Cantrips are a separate category from Prepared Spells on the Bard Table.  Magical Secrets only grants access to the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell lists through the Prepared Spells.  Lore Bards can select cantrips under Magical Discoveries because Magical Discoveries specifically added cantrips to the choices.I sincerely doubt any DM would say no to a bard who wanted to take a cantrip from another list with Magical Secrets, but that's not how the RAW works.How are 2014 Lore Bards relevant to the point being made?  You seem to be conflating 2014 and 2024 rules here regarding sorcerers.  Sorcerers had significantly fewer spells known than 2014 bards unless a bloodline helped.This is because they had similar spells known progression but bards had 2 extra immediately and Magical Secrets was designed to give additional spells known instead of alternative spells to the progression like 2024 does now.But 2014 Magical Secrets is kind of moot given both class spell progressions and Magical Secrets were updated under the 2024 rules.But not all wizard or sorcerer spells.  A wizard can encapsulate all wizard spells on the bard spell list but not vice versa.How is this relevant now?  Jack of All Trades is massively reduced in applications and Counterspell is a CON save.  14th level lore bards can still use Peerless Skill with Dispel Magic to make them good at it, but how does that match the premise of cleric, druid, or wizard flavor?  What does it have to do with Magical Secrets?  How often does it even come up in gameplay?  Food for thought.  ;-)This is actually one of the reasons I opted to respond here.  The "full roster" of sorcerer spells isn't possible outside of spells the sorcerer shares with other classes because Magical Secrets and Magical Discoveries doesn't allow for sorcerer spells.The bard's "full roster" of spells from those other classes is significantly limited by the bard's spell preparation mechanic compared to those other classes as well as bonus spells those classes can access.The bard's "full roster" of spells from those other classes requires giving up spells from the spells already prepared to allow further access into those spell lists.  A bard already has most of their spell list from those other lists.  If you were to claim "bards can cast spells like wizards" then yes, a bard can focus on wizard spells from the bard list until Magical Secrets and then continue to focus on Wizard spells with a broader choice of spells from which to prepared.This idea that this is what makes a bard powerful is a silly premise, IMO.  If I were going to load up on wizard spells with a lore bard I could just make a wizard.  Then I'd have more wizard spells and have them for my entire adventuring career and have Ritual Adept and have Arcane Recovery and have more spells prepared and have Spell Mastery and still have a subclass to choose as well.  There's no scenario where the bard can beat any of those classes at their own game just because they also have access to those spells.  Just make a wizard and have it all instead of a bard pretending to be a wizard and have some good parts of it.Magical Secrets is useful in mixing and matching spells.  That's something bards already do within the variety of their spell list and it gets better with Magical Secrets.  Magical Secrets itself can add versatility but it doesn't make the bard a more potent spellcaster.</blockquote>

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