Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
List of Potential New Martial Practices
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7495685" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I have really found the 20 level progression to be a lot more natural than the 30 level one of 4e. I think the 4e designers started out with the basic 20 level progression concept, and then they imagined epic tier as a sort of 'other game' or additional material, much like AD&D or 3.x basically assume you would play for 20 levels and then maybe anything beyond that is a sort of optional 'god mode' (which I guess 3.x actually calls 'epic', though I'm not really a 3.x guru). </p><p></p><p>Over time the design kind of shifted. They invented epic destinies, etc. Then, I suspect, at some point they kind of 'rescaled' the game and tried to tame the sort of 'craziness' that happened in high level play in earlier editions. Maybe this wasn't really a separate phase of design but as it happened it kind brought epic tier 'down to earth' in a sense, remaking it into sort of just 'high level play' again, so that by the time 4e was released its level 30 is basically pretty similar to level 20 in earlier systems.</p><p></p><p>I think the process wasn't really a positive one. The original idea of putting a 'crazy god mode' into the intended scope of the rules wasn't a BAD idea, but when it effectively just ended up as 30 levels of what was once 20 it burdened the game with too many levels. HoML is great because there are SO MANY FEWER needs for extra 'stuff' to invent to 'fill levels'. Each thing is just more naturally significant and interesting in and of itself. Pacing of level advancement can always be accomplished by whatever means, simply giving out major boons less often basically.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7495685, member: 82106"] I have really found the 20 level progression to be a lot more natural than the 30 level one of 4e. I think the 4e designers started out with the basic 20 level progression concept, and then they imagined epic tier as a sort of 'other game' or additional material, much like AD&D or 3.x basically assume you would play for 20 levels and then maybe anything beyond that is a sort of optional 'god mode' (which I guess 3.x actually calls 'epic', though I'm not really a 3.x guru). Over time the design kind of shifted. They invented epic destinies, etc. Then, I suspect, at some point they kind of 'rescaled' the game and tried to tame the sort of 'craziness' that happened in high level play in earlier editions. Maybe this wasn't really a separate phase of design but as it happened it kind brought epic tier 'down to earth' in a sense, remaking it into sort of just 'high level play' again, so that by the time 4e was released its level 30 is basically pretty similar to level 20 in earlier systems. I think the process wasn't really a positive one. The original idea of putting a 'crazy god mode' into the intended scope of the rules wasn't a BAD idea, but when it effectively just ended up as 30 levels of what was once 20 it burdened the game with too many levels. HoML is great because there are SO MANY FEWER needs for extra 'stuff' to invent to 'fill levels'. Each thing is just more naturally significant and interesting in and of itself. Pacing of level advancement can always be accomplished by whatever means, simply giving out major boons less often basically. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
List of Potential New Martial Practices
Top