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<blockquote data-quote="iwatt" data-source="post: 1092373" data-attributes="member: 11085">By the way, your analysis is totally negelecting the fact that 10' means a -1 to the check. Assuming your character wants to sneak up to 30' (partial charge distance for a medium sized rogue), he's gotten a big enough break (i.e the guard only hears him 38,25% of the time and only sees him 38,25% of the time). But as you say, the guard only need to detect him through one of his senses. The possible outcomes are:H=Heard&nbsp; NH=Not Heard&nbsp; S=Seen NS=Not seenH-S&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 38,25%x38,25%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =14.63%NH-S&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; (100%-38,25%)x38,25%&nbsp; =23.62%H-NS&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 38.25%x(100%-38,25%)&nbsp; =23.62%NH-NS&nbsp;&nbsp; (100%-38,25%)^2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =38.13%&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; So he's&nbsp; detected 61.87% of the time (pretty high actually). But this is assuming equally skilled sneaks v/s guards. Also, been heard is not nearly as terrible as been seen, as was mentioned before. Most guards will have the alertness feat, maybe a Wis 12, and maxed cross rank skill in listen and spot (unless a rogue or ranger himself). The average sneaky rogue will have Dex 16, no Armor Check penalty, and maxed out skills. The alertness feat defeats the ability modifier difference, and most rogues wont take Stealthy as a feat (better uses for feats). So if both the Guard and the Rogue are same level (X), then the ranger is up in the game by: (X+3)/2 i.e. Level 1&nbsp;&nbsp; Guard&nbsp; 2(ranks)+1(Wis)+2(Alertness)= +5Rogue&nbsp; 4(ranks)+3(dex)= +7He's detected at 30' 51%Level 5 Guard&nbsp; 4(ranks)+1(Wis)+2(Alertness)= +7Rogue&nbsp; 8(ranks)+3(dex)= +11He's detected at 30' 45%Level 9Guard&nbsp; 6(ranks)+1(Wis)+2(Alertness)= +9Rogue&nbsp; 12(ranks)+3(dex)= +15He's detected at 30' 35%These are pretty high detecting chances, but remember this is scenario in which the guard is quite capable. By the way, in d20 Modern you can even get hide modfiier from cover (+5 for 3/4; +10 for 9/10),so this also aids the sneaker even more. Although in [3.5] ther's no more varied levels of cover I think, so I don't think you can use this.Maybe all these numbers helped you see that it really isn't impossible to sneak, although it is increasingly hard to sneak &quot;very&quot; close.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="iwatt, post: 1092373, member: 11085"] By the way, your analysis is totally negelecting the fact that 10' means a -1 to the check. Assuming your character wants to sneak up to 30' (partial charge distance for a medium sized rogue), he's gotten a big enough break (i.e the guard only hears him 38,25% of the time and only sees him 38,25% of the time). But as you say, the guard only need to detect him through one of his senses. The possible outcomes are: H=Heard NH=Not Heard S=Seen NS=Not seen H-S 38,25%x38,25% =14.63% NH-S (100%-38,25%)x38,25% =23.62% H-NS 38.25%x(100%-38,25%) =23.62% NH-NS (100%-38,25%)^2 =38.13% So he's detected 61.87% of the time (pretty high actually). But this is assuming equally skilled sneaks v/s guards. Also, been heard is not nearly as terrible as been seen, as was mentioned before. Most guards will have the alertness feat, maybe a Wis 12, and maxed cross rank skill in listen and spot (unless a rogue or ranger himself). The average sneaky rogue will have Dex 16, no Armor Check penalty, and maxed out skills. The alertness feat defeats the ability modifier difference, and most rogues wont take Stealthy as a feat (better uses for feats). So if both the Guard and the Rogue are same level (X), then the ranger is up in the game by: (X+3)/2 i.e. Level 1 Guard 2(ranks)+1(Wis)+2(Alertness)= +5 Rogue 4(ranks)+3(dex)= +7 He's detected at 30' 51% Level 5 Guard 4(ranks)+1(Wis)+2(Alertness)= +7 Rogue 8(ranks)+3(dex)= +11 He's detected at 30' 45% Level 9 Guard 6(ranks)+1(Wis)+2(Alertness)= +9 Rogue 12(ranks)+3(dex)= +15 He's detected at 30' 35% These are pretty high detecting chances, but remember this is scenario in which the guard is quite capable. By the way, in d20 Modern you can even get hide modfiier from cover (+5 for 3/4; +10 for 9/10),so this also aids the sneaker even more. Although in [3.5] ther's no more varied levels of cover I think, so I don't think you can use this. Maybe all these numbers helped you see that it really isn't impossible to sneak, although it is increasingly hard to sneak "very" close. [/QUOTE]

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