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<blockquote data-quote="HammerMan" data-source="post: 8431476" data-attributes="member: 84112"><p>back in the day there was a superhero D20 game called mutants and masterminds. </p><p></p><p>it was supposed to be balanced to have batman and superman in the same 'party'</p><p>in theory you made batman super hard to hit and a little tough... you did this by giving him the equivalent of a huge dex bonus. You make superman by ditching AC all together and being really hard to hurt. You have superman hit really strong/hard, and you have batman hit just right to do more damage...</p><p></p><p>this was pulled off with caps. You would set a power level (lets take 12) and as such AC bonus maxed at 12, to hit maxed at 12, damage bonus maxed at 12, tougness (negate damage) maxed at 12 and super powers (each had a rank) maxed at 12. However there were trade offs.</p><p></p><p>so in above example batman would trade 2 toughness max for 2 AC bonus max and have a 24AC and +10 toughness as max, then trade damage and attack also by 2 so max +14 to hit but max +10 to damage, and superman would do the reverse but even more so doing 5 for ac/tough and 3 for att/dam giving him a max AC of 17 and a max toughness of +17 a max attack of +9 a max damage of +15 </p><p>Now remember those are max not what they have to start... but of course both will have different ways to get to AC attack and damage mods even the toughness... Superman has super str and invulnerability, batman has a high dex the equivalent of sneak attack and body armor... in world they could not be more diffrent...</p><p></p><p>BUT!!!!! Big But, they both start with same number of points, and yeah batman may spend more on skills (not nescarlary being a detective and being a reporter has a lot of overlap) but when they start they both could end up with batman having +4 to hit (+6 with flank/suprise) +3 damage (+5 with flank/suprise) and superman having +5 to hit and +4 to damage, batman having a 16 AC (dodgey and armor) and superman having a 16 AC (tough hide) and batman having +15 toughness (dodgy roll withit plus body armor) and superman having +15 toughness (invunrable) and both having +4 initative...</p><p></p><p>infact remove the flavor text and the two sheets MIGHT look almost identical, and even as they gain more pts would until the hit the maxs, and even then look similar. </p><p></p><p>THAT is over balanced. Infact it was during the 3.0-3.5 change over area, this COULD have been a canary in the cole mine for why 4e would not be received as well by the old guard.</p><p></p><p>now these two don't sound too bad right... I mean they are both JLA member so of course they are similar... try it with the avengers and you get Black widow deals similar damage to Hulk.</p><p></p><p>(IF you know the system this is a SUPER basic simplfication, and yes the invunrability and pericing traits helped and there are lots of little things that somewhat fix this, but at it's basic this is the orginal Mutants and Masterminds....also FYI my 2nd favorite SUperhero RPG is the more modern M&M, and I love 4e, so I mean no disrespect to either. )</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="HammerMan, post: 8431476, member: 84112"] back in the day there was a superhero D20 game called mutants and masterminds. it was supposed to be balanced to have batman and superman in the same 'party' in theory you made batman super hard to hit and a little tough... you did this by giving him the equivalent of a huge dex bonus. You make superman by ditching AC all together and being really hard to hurt. You have superman hit really strong/hard, and you have batman hit just right to do more damage... this was pulled off with caps. You would set a power level (lets take 12) and as such AC bonus maxed at 12, to hit maxed at 12, damage bonus maxed at 12, tougness (negate damage) maxed at 12 and super powers (each had a rank) maxed at 12. However there were trade offs. so in above example batman would trade 2 toughness max for 2 AC bonus max and have a 24AC and +10 toughness as max, then trade damage and attack also by 2 so max +14 to hit but max +10 to damage, and superman would do the reverse but even more so doing 5 for ac/tough and 3 for att/dam giving him a max AC of 17 and a max toughness of +17 a max attack of +9 a max damage of +15 Now remember those are max not what they have to start... but of course both will have different ways to get to AC attack and damage mods even the toughness... Superman has super str and invulnerability, batman has a high dex the equivalent of sneak attack and body armor... in world they could not be more diffrent... BUT!!!!! Big But, they both start with same number of points, and yeah batman may spend more on skills (not nescarlary being a detective and being a reporter has a lot of overlap) but when they start they both could end up with batman having +4 to hit (+6 with flank/suprise) +3 damage (+5 with flank/suprise) and superman having +5 to hit and +4 to damage, batman having a 16 AC (dodgey and armor) and superman having a 16 AC (tough hide) and batman having +15 toughness (dodgy roll withit plus body armor) and superman having +15 toughness (invunrable) and both having +4 initative... infact remove the flavor text and the two sheets MIGHT look almost identical, and even as they gain more pts would until the hit the maxs, and even then look similar. THAT is over balanced. Infact it was during the 3.0-3.5 change over area, this COULD have been a canary in the cole mine for why 4e would not be received as well by the old guard. now these two don't sound too bad right... I mean they are both JLA member so of course they are similar... try it with the avengers and you get Black widow deals similar damage to Hulk. (IF you know the system this is a SUPER basic simplfication, and yes the invunrability and pericing traits helped and there are lots of little things that somewhat fix this, but at it's basic this is the orginal Mutants and Masterminds....also FYI my 2nd favorite SUperhero RPG is the more modern M&M, and I love 4e, so I mean no disrespect to either. ) [/QUOTE]
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