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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 6899394" data-attributes="member: 6788736">There were no turns when the player declared his action. You're in narrative time.If he declares he is doing X, and then dice are rolled to resolve that action, its happening. Im not sure that needs a rule.If during a social encounter, a player says 'I'll hurl my sword at the King looking to impale him on his throne!' (after the shocked silence at the table) you say 'Ummm OK' roll initiative. Lets see if the guards (or other players, or the king) can react in time to thwart this madman as he goes for his sword with murder in his eyes.You're not in 'combat' prior this point so there are no turns. Something has happened to trigger the switch from narrative time (when turn sequencing doesnt matter) to combat time (an abstraction, with turn sequencing for ease of play).If it really bothers you, I suggest letting the player roll his attack first, and then before you compare it to the critters AC or make a save or whatever, roll initiative to see if the target is surprised or not.It would go:1: Player initiates combat by declaring an attack.2: Player rolls his attack roll, casts his spell or whatever. None of it is resolved yet.3: DM and Player now make opposed dex checks to see if the target can react/ dodge the attack/ is caught totally unawares by the attack/ counterspell in time (and to sequence the rest of the combat).4: With that information now at hand, resolve 2.Same outcome, different sequencing of rolls. I guess I just trust my players that when they say 'Im going to draw back my bow and shoot the Bugbear' once I accept that this is what they are doing and dice start getting tossed around to resolve this action (a Dex check to see if the Bugbear can react in time) there is no 'takings back' if those dice are unfavorable to them.Its never an issue for me as I roll initiative in secret behind the screen. The players know what they got, but not the monsters result (although after a round its pretty obvious).In this situation (player declares an attack initiating combat), the player and I roll initiative, and I note the results. Then (regardless of the result) I look at the player and say, 'roll your attack'.Once resolved, the player finds out then if the creature is surprised or not.If my players are wandering down a forest trail, and are ambushed by a bunch of goblins, surprising three of them (one, Seans Ranger - makes his perception check), then I narrate it thus:'Alright; as you walk down the trail, your thoughts turn to your recent adventures, and warm beds that await you at town. Suddenly the air is filled with a whistling sound and a hail of black fletched arrows fills the sky! You're all surprised... aside from you Sean - your Ranger spots several goblins off to the north side of the trail, about 40' from where the party is. Roll initiative.'Even if Sean goes first and fireballs the goblins into ash (he multiclassed Wizard) before the Goblins attacks are resolved, nothing changes. You just narrate it as the arrows falling harmlessly around the party, and get on with the game.Remember, combat is simultaneous (despite the cyclical nature of turns its resolved in). If a player declares he's doing action X, then action X is happening. The opposed Dex check made by all combatants is simply checking reaction speeds to this stimulus. All initiative is is simply an opposed Dex check to see if the surprised critters can maybe react in time to get a reaction up to that stimulus, and to see if they cop one whole rounds worth of attacks before they can do anything, or two.</blockquote>

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