Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Little rules changes that still trip you up
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 6899606" data-attributes="member: 6799649"><p>By RAW, you are surprised at the start of combat <em>if you don't detect a <strong>threat</strong></em>.</p><p></p><p>Whether you are aware of the creature or not.</p><p></p><p>Although, in a traditional dungeon bash or wilderness exploration, you <em>usually</em> 'detect a threat' when you first detect the creature itself, this doesn't have to be the case.</p><p></p><p>For example, you could be in high-level government-type diplomatic negotiations; you can detect all the <em>creatures</em>, but that doesn't mean you automatically detect the <em>threat</em> of the guy suddenly drawing his dagger and stabbing you with it!</p><p></p><p>The RAW is that DMs determine surprise. He can determine surprise any way he damn well pleases!</p><p></p><p>He can just say, "those guys are surprised, those guys are not!"</p><p></p><p>Usually, he will ask for opposed skill checks.</p><p></p><p><em>Usually</em> those skills will be Perception versus Stealth, because <em>usually</em> as soon as you detect the creature you detect the threat because you have reason to believe that the troll you see wishes to kill everything it sees.</p><p></p><p>But 'Stealth versus Perception' is not the rule; 'the DM decides who is surprised' is the rule.</p><p></p><p>So, in the situation where you know the creature is there but you don't realise that it is a threat, the DM can ask for opposed Deception versus Insight checks, to represent being able to interpret the attacker's body language correctly and that he is going to attack.</p><p></p><p>This is the check I would use to adjudicate a gunslinger fast draw showdown. You can see the baddy easily enough, but if you draw first and kill him then it's murder, while if he draws first and you kill him then it's self-defence. So you are reading his body language and when you read that he is going for his gun then you go for yours and try and be faster.</p><p></p><p>In game terms, the baddy 'declared' that he was drawing and shooting (we are not in combat yet). As soon as he does, initiative is rolled and surprise determined.</p><p></p><p>The baddy <em>draws</em> first, but does he get to <em>shoot</em> first? That's why we have game mechanics, to find out!</p><p></p><p>The baddy is not surprised because he knows he is attacking(!). He makes a Deception check, which represents him trying to disguise the fact that he's 'going for his gun'. You make an Insight check, which represents the fact that you are trying to determine this very thing!</p><p></p><p>If you win, you can act normally. He may still be faster on the draw than you; that's what initiative rolls are for!</p><p></p><p>Of course, if you don't care about being called a murderer or there are no witnesses, and you are happy to gun him down, you can say that you are drawing and shooting him and he can say that he is drawing and shooting you. Roll initiative! No-one is surprised, no-one is worried about body language, you are just trying to kill each other. Who draws first is all about reaction time not trying to ascertain his intentions. It's a straight initiative check.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 6899606, member: 6799649"] By RAW, you are surprised at the start of combat [I]if you don't detect a [B]threat[/B][/I]. Whether you are aware of the creature or not. Although, in a traditional dungeon bash or wilderness exploration, you [I]usually[/I] 'detect a threat' when you first detect the creature itself, this doesn't have to be the case. For example, you could be in high-level government-type diplomatic negotiations; you can detect all the [I]creatures[/I], but that doesn't mean you automatically detect the [I]threat[/I] of the guy suddenly drawing his dagger and stabbing you with it! The RAW is that DMs determine surprise. He can determine surprise any way he damn well pleases! He can just say, "those guys are surprised, those guys are not!" Usually, he will ask for opposed skill checks. [I]Usually[/I] those skills will be Perception versus Stealth, because [I]usually[/I] as soon as you detect the creature you detect the threat because you have reason to believe that the troll you see wishes to kill everything it sees. But 'Stealth versus Perception' is not the rule; 'the DM decides who is surprised' is the rule. So, in the situation where you know the creature is there but you don't realise that it is a threat, the DM can ask for opposed Deception versus Insight checks, to represent being able to interpret the attacker's body language correctly and that he is going to attack. This is the check I would use to adjudicate a gunslinger fast draw showdown. You can see the baddy easily enough, but if you draw first and kill him then it's murder, while if he draws first and you kill him then it's self-defence. So you are reading his body language and when you read that he is going for his gun then you go for yours and try and be faster. In game terms, the baddy 'declared' that he was drawing and shooting (we are not in combat yet). As soon as he does, initiative is rolled and surprise determined. The baddy [I]draws[/I] first, but does he get to [I]shoot[/I] first? That's why we have game mechanics, to find out! The baddy is not surprised because he knows he is attacking(!). He makes a Deception check, which represents him trying to disguise the fact that he's 'going for his gun'. You make an Insight check, which represents the fact that you are trying to determine this very thing! If you win, you can act normally. He may still be faster on the draw than you; that's what initiative rolls are for! Of course, if you don't care about being called a murderer or there are no witnesses, and you are happy to gun him down, you can say that you are drawing and shooting him and he can say that he is drawing and shooting you. Roll initiative! No-one is surprised, no-one is worried about body language, you are just trying to kill each other. Who draws first is all about reaction time not trying to ascertain his intentions. It's a straight initiative check. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Little rules changes that still trip you up
Top