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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Keldryn" data-source="post: 5932929" data-attributes="member: 11999">You're missing the forest for the trees here.The formula of d20 + modifiers vs DC is essentially just a refinement of how attack rolls worked in all pre-3e versions of D&D, and expanding the idea to be used for all checks.  Older versions of D&D used charts to determine the target values, but all of those charts can be easily expressed as d20 + modifiers >= 20, and that goes for saving throws as well as attack rolls.d20 + ability modifer + skill bonus vs DC looks like 3e in implementation if you're focusing at a very micro level.Take a big step back and contrast skills in 3e versus 2e non-weapon proficiencies and BECMI general skills:3e skills:  <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">select skills from a definitive list of skills</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">what you can do with a skill is fairly rigidly defined</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the base ability score has a strong influence on the skill at low level, but quickly becomes overshadowed by skill bonuses from level gains and other modifiers</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">skills are purchased from a pool of skill points, which in turn are primarily determined by your class</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">character class restricts your skill choices through the designation of class skills and cross-class skills</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">total skill check modifiers can get complicated: ability modifier, skill ranks, synergy bonus, feat bonus, racial bonus, armor penalty, magical enhancements</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">character sheets tend to have long lists of skills</li> </ul>2e non-weapon proficiencies:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">proficiencies are selected from an exhaustive list which was frequently extended over the course of the edition (unlike 3e, which very rarely added any new skills)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">what you can do with a proficiency is loosely defined</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the base ability score is the primary determinant of success or failure  of a skill check; skill bonuses from level gains have a generally small  impact</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">proficiencies are purchased with slots, the number of which are determined by your class (with far less variation between classes than in 3e)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">character class restricts your proficiency choices outside of the General group and your class group, by requiring you to spend one additional slot to purchase a proficiency</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">proficiency check modifiers are usually very simple: bonus or penalty inherent to the proficiency itself, bonus from additional slots spent</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">character sheets tend to have fairly short lists of proficiencies</li> </ul>BECMI skills:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">select skills from a flexible list of suggested skills (players are encouraged to come up with their own)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">what you can do with a skill is loosely defined</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the base ability score is the primary determinant of success or failure of a skill check; skill bonuses from level gains have a generally small impact</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">every class gets the same number of skill "points" to spend on acquiring or improving skills</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">skills are equally available to members of all character classes</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">skill check modifiers are very simple: bonus from additional "points" spent</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">character sheets tend to have short lists of skills</li> </ul>D&D Next skills: (based on the playtest, of course)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the skills mentioned in the package are suggested examples and are clearly not from a definitive list</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">what you can do with a skill or check is loosely defined, to the point where a trained skill isn't necessarily associated with a specific ability score</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the base ability score and skill training both have a significant influence on the skill check.  With suggested automatic success when the ability score is >= DC + 5, I'll give the base ability score the overall edge.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">classes have the same access to skills (through backgrounds), although some classes (such as the rogue) get bonus skills</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">check modifiers are simple: ability modifier, trained skill bonus</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">character sheets tend to have short lists of trained skills</li> </ul>In terms of the overall concept, D&D Next skills are by far the closest to BECMI general skills than they are to a system in any other edition of D&D.  At this level, they're about as far from the 3e approach as they can get without making them completely unassociated with ability scores.  You can re-write any of the skill checks into the form d20 + modifiers >= DC, with the only difference being how ability score modifiers for skills are determined in each edition (it would be ability score minus 10 in 2e and BECMI).From what I've seen so far, DDN resembles 3e only at this superficial level of using the consistent d20 + modifiers >= DC mechanic.  When you step back and look at the overall context into which that mechanic is used, the game looks much more like a modernized Basic/Expert D&D or a stripped-down 4e Essentials.  At least it does to me.  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/glasses.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt="B-)" title="Glasses    B-)" data-shortname="B-)" /></blockquote>

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