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Living vs dead vs undead
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<blockquote data-quote="Voadam" data-source="post: 8465029" data-attributes="member: 2209"><p>Rules interpretations should probably start with the rules.</p><p></p><p>REVIVIFY</p><p>3rd-level necromancy</p><p>Casting Time: 1 action</p><p>Range: Touch</p><p>Components: V, S, M (diamonds worth 300 gp, which the spell consumes)</p><p>Duration: Instantaneous</p><p>You touch a creature that has died within the last minute. That creature returns to life with 1 hit point. This spell can't return to life a creature that has died of old age, nor can it restore any missing body parts.</p><p></p><p>RAISE DEAD</p><p>5th-level necromancy</p><p>Casting Time: 1 hour</p><p>Range: Touch</p><p>Components: V, S, M (a diamond worth at least 500 gp, which the spell consumes)</p><p>Duration: Instantaneous</p><p>You return a dead creature you touch to life, provided that it has been dead no longer than 10 days. If the creature's soul is both willing and at liberty to rejoin the body, the creature returns to life with 1 hit point.</p><p>This spell also neutralizes any poisons and cures nonmagical diseases that affected the creature at the time it died. This spell doesn't, however, remove magical diseases, curses, or similar effects; if these aren't first removed prior to casting the spell, they take effect when the creature returns to life. The spell can't return an undead creature to life.</p><p>This spell closes all mortal wounds, but it doesn't restore missing body parts. If the creature is lacking body parts or organs integral for its survival-its head, for instance-the spell automatically fails.</p><p>Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The target takes a -4 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks. Every time the target finishes a long rest, the penalty is reduced by 1 until it disappears.</p><p></p><p>RESURRECTION</p><p>7th-level necromancy</p><p>Casting Time: 1 hour</p><p>Range: Touch</p><p>Components: V, S, M (a diamond worth at least 1,000 gp, which the spell consumes)</p><p>Duration: Instantaneous</p><p>You touch a dead creature that has been dead for no more than a century, that didn't die of old age, and that isn't undead. If its soul is free and willing, the target returns to life with all its hit points.</p><p>This spell neutralizes any poisons and cures normal diseases afflicting the creature when it died. It doesn't, however, remove magical diseases, curses, and the like; if such effects aren't removed prior to casting the spell, they afflict the target on its return to life.</p><p>This spell closes all mortal wounds and restores any missing body parts.</p><p>Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The target takes a -4 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks. Every time the target finishes a long rest, the penalty is reduced by 1 until it disappears.</p><p>Casting this spell to restore life to a creature that has been dead for one year or longer taxes you greatly. Until you finish a long rest, you can't cast spells again, and you have disadvantage on all attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws.</p><p></p><p>TRUE RESURRECTION</p><p>9th-level necromancy</p><p>Casting Time: 1 hour</p><p>Range: Touch</p><p>Components: V, S, M (a sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth at least 25,000 gp, which the spell consumes)</p><p>Duration: Instantaneous</p><p>You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points.</p><p>This spell closes all wounds, neutralizes any poison, cures all diseases, and lifts any curses affecting the creature when it died. The spell replaces damaged or missing organs and limbs. If the creature was undead, it is restored to its non-undead form.</p><p>The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists, in which case you must speak the creature's name. The creature then appears in an unoccupied space you choose within 10 feet of you.</p><p></p><p>So the creature that died within the last minute is the zombie and not the living character who died 18 minutes ago.</p><p></p><p>So the question is can revivify return a zombie to life? As an undead it seems a reasonable call to say that revivify will not bring it back to unlife. It would also seem a reasonable call to go the other way and say that bringing an undead "back to life" means bringing them back to unlife. It seems an ambiguous rules situation open to different rulings.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That seems a departure from reading comprehension here and not justified by the spells as written.</p><p></p><p>Spell A (revivify) can do X (bring a creature back to life).</p><p></p><p>Spell B (raise dead) can also do X but also has an explicit restriction of but not to subset Y (undead).</p><p></p><p>Reading it straight Spell A (revivify) is not restricted by the restriction of Spell B. It could be restricted similarly because of the definitions of life and unlife and undeath and death, but not because there is a restriction in raise dead.</p><p></p><p>As a matter of game design and in world logic it could certainly make sense to have the same restriction throughout all the raise type spells or to have the no undead be for all the lower level ones and save a powerful exception for higher level true resurrection, but it does not have to be that way of straight progressions. Each spell can be idiosyncratic in some way for various reasons.</p><p></p><p>Raise is higher level and costs a more valuable diamond and cannot be cast on undead, but also allows raising within 10 days instead of being limited to within one minute. That expansion of time could be conceptually so powerful that it takes higher level, more value in sacrifice, and requires a restriction in what can be brought back.</p><p></p><p>There could be a cosmological short time period after death where the animating force is still close enough that it is fairly easy for magic to put stuff back as it was, whereas the souls of undead and living creatures could go on different paths after a specific period of time and the mid level spells are tuned to grabbing life from the dead living creature path specifically and not the undead paths. It then takes the really big guns to grab undead life forces after the revivify window has closed.</p><p></p><p>Revivify could be the Princess Bride's "Only mostly dead" and it could work on undead too while the others don't.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, some D&D players will look at how things are actually written in the language of the rules and add in their own restrictions that are not actually there because they do not like the implications of what is actually written. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have no idea what Crawford says in his twitter account but I think sticking to the printed rules as a primary source is probably more useful in discussing the rules.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Voadam, post: 8465029, member: 2209"] Rules interpretations should probably start with the rules. REVIVIFY 3rd-level necromancy Casting Time: 1 action Range: Touch Components: V, S, M (diamonds worth 300 gp, which the spell consumes) Duration: Instantaneous You touch a creature that has died within the last minute. That creature returns to life with 1 hit point. This spell can't return to life a creature that has died of old age, nor can it restore any missing body parts. RAISE DEAD 5th-level necromancy Casting Time: 1 hour Range: Touch Components: V, S, M (a diamond worth at least 500 gp, which the spell consumes) Duration: Instantaneous You return a dead creature you touch to life, provided that it has been dead no longer than 10 days. If the creature's soul is both willing and at liberty to rejoin the body, the creature returns to life with 1 hit point. This spell also neutralizes any poisons and cures nonmagical diseases that affected the creature at the time it died. This spell doesn't, however, remove magical diseases, curses, or similar effects; if these aren't first removed prior to casting the spell, they take effect when the creature returns to life. The spell can't return an undead creature to life. This spell closes all mortal wounds, but it doesn't restore missing body parts. If the creature is lacking body parts or organs integral for its survival-its head, for instance-the spell automatically fails. Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The target takes a -4 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks. Every time the target finishes a long rest, the penalty is reduced by 1 until it disappears. RESURRECTION 7th-level necromancy Casting Time: 1 hour Range: Touch Components: V, S, M (a diamond worth at least 1,000 gp, which the spell consumes) Duration: Instantaneous You touch a dead creature that has been dead for no more than a century, that didn't die of old age, and that isn't undead. If its soul is free and willing, the target returns to life with all its hit points. This spell neutralizes any poisons and cures normal diseases afflicting the creature when it died. It doesn't, however, remove magical diseases, curses, and the like; if such effects aren't removed prior to casting the spell, they afflict the target on its return to life. This spell closes all mortal wounds and restores any missing body parts. Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The target takes a -4 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks. Every time the target finishes a long rest, the penalty is reduced by 1 until it disappears. Casting this spell to restore life to a creature that has been dead for one year or longer taxes you greatly. Until you finish a long rest, you can't cast spells again, and you have disadvantage on all attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. TRUE RESURRECTION 9th-level necromancy Casting Time: 1 hour Range: Touch Components: V, S, M (a sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth at least 25,000 gp, which the spell consumes) Duration: Instantaneous You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points. This spell closes all wounds, neutralizes any poison, cures all diseases, and lifts any curses affecting the creature when it died. The spell replaces damaged or missing organs and limbs. If the creature was undead, it is restored to its non-undead form. The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists, in which case you must speak the creature's name. The creature then appears in an unoccupied space you choose within 10 feet of you. So the creature that died within the last minute is the zombie and not the living character who died 18 minutes ago. So the question is can revivify return a zombie to life? As an undead it seems a reasonable call to say that revivify will not bring it back to unlife. It would also seem a reasonable call to go the other way and say that bringing an undead "back to life" means bringing them back to unlife. It seems an ambiguous rules situation open to different rulings. That seems a departure from reading comprehension here and not justified by the spells as written. Spell A (revivify) can do X (bring a creature back to life). Spell B (raise dead) can also do X but also has an explicit restriction of but not to subset Y (undead). Reading it straight Spell A (revivify) is not restricted by the restriction of Spell B. It could be restricted similarly because of the definitions of life and unlife and undeath and death, but not because there is a restriction in raise dead. As a matter of game design and in world logic it could certainly make sense to have the same restriction throughout all the raise type spells or to have the no undead be for all the lower level ones and save a powerful exception for higher level true resurrection, but it does not have to be that way of straight progressions. Each spell can be idiosyncratic in some way for various reasons. Raise is higher level and costs a more valuable diamond and cannot be cast on undead, but also allows raising within 10 days instead of being limited to within one minute. That expansion of time could be conceptually so powerful that it takes higher level, more value in sacrifice, and requires a restriction in what can be brought back. There could be a cosmological short time period after death where the animating force is still close enough that it is fairly easy for magic to put stuff back as it was, whereas the souls of undead and living creatures could go on different paths after a specific period of time and the mid level spells are tuned to grabbing life from the dead living creature path specifically and not the undead paths. It then takes the really big guns to grab undead life forces after the revivify window has closed. Revivify could be the Princess Bride's "Only mostly dead" and it could work on undead too while the others don't. Yes, some D&D players will look at how things are actually written in the language of the rules and add in their own restrictions that are not actually there because they do not like the implications of what is actually written. :) I have no idea what Crawford says in his twitter account but I think sticking to the printed rules as a primary source is probably more useful in discussing the rules. [/QUOTE]
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