(LONG)-Getting back to basics, role-playing?

[Willthechased]

*WARNING*Sorry folks, this turned out to be a bit longer (and more rambling) than I'd hoped!!!

Remember the old days when playing D&D didn't require you to lug a bunch of minis around? Or when all the books you needed could fit in a small book bag? Remember role-playing, not roll-playing?
I've been absent from D&D for a while after just getting burned out at the energy required to create and run games and of course, like a 20 year old drug habit, the itch has come back. The first thing that tickled my fancy was the desire to create background, setting and story. The second was the desire to share that with my usual group of gamers and get back to some serious questing!!!
Then I stopped. I put my books down and I stopped to consider, "Why did I put my books away in the first place anyway?"
I said above that I was 'burned out'. On D&D? No. On minis games? No, I am in love with WarMachine! What gave me that burned out feeling came from working too hard in a system to jam what for the last 20 years has always been a role-playing/story based game into a table-top mini game.
When 3.0 came out it was like fresh air for me, simple rules and easy to explain and teach to new players. It was fun having visuals and rules to use them in a game that I've always loved. The 3.5 upgrade seemed good too, clearing up rules etc but my burnout had already begun and I didn't even know it!
I found that as the DM 95% of the time it falls on my shoulders the majority of the time to keep the game moving, balanced and fun to play. That had for years meant an engaging plot/story, fun NPC's, treasure and plenty of character play. In the new editions these things always seemed to take a back seat and with every new book coming out and it didn't take long for most of my players to get into the "What do we get to kill tonight?" mode. Because of course the rules in 3.0/3.5 seem geared so much to "gain XP to get your character his next cool move" it started looking more like a video game being played out on the kitchen table. Hell, I'm even a player in a group and got sucked in to that myself!!!
The biggest frustration came for me when I had to make two trips to load the car on my way to DM my games. "What happened?" I thought, "things used to be much more simple (and lighter) than this?" I was spending the same amount of time writing story and background for my campaign and having to spend even more time now on figuring out which minis would be needed, which ones MIGHT be needed and (to my own fault) which ones might just be fun to throw out there! For that matter, I've never had so many minis in my house and I've played mini games for almost as long as D&D!
As I said before, I love minis games, the minis themselves were not the problem. Is it my style of DM'ing or that my players just want that kind of game part of the problem? Perhaps, but other groups I was in seemed to end up in the same place as I. Folks show up for game, order up some grub and then go about setting up the first encounter. If we were lucky we might get two such encounters in one night!!! The problem (if you could call it an actual problem) was that the game itself had seemed to be evolved to a point where the combat and encounters were made to be the whole purpose of the game. No longer did there seem to be any focus on character story and background as the game progressed, the only time background seemed to be important was when a hook was needed to get the party to fight the BBEG. Even the players themselves seem interested only in the numbers on the character sheet and how much cool stuff they can do.
So sorry for the long post but it's been on my mind as of late and I'm just wondering, how many others have had similar feelings and thoughts on the evolution of this game we know and love? Has anyone out there found a way to use the d20 system in a way that encourages less minis/combat action? Hell, do I just need to find a new group to play with perhaps?
And my last question, are there new products or reprints of older ones that would be more suited to a guy with concerns like mine???
Thanks for your time folks!!!
-W-

 

[Crothian]

Remember the old days when playing D&D didn't require you to lug a bunch of minis around? Or when all the books you needed could fit in a small book bag? Remember role-playing, not roll-playing?

Um, oD&D did use minis (if people wanted to) it evolved from wargames. And I remember role playing because that's what I did last week, and the week before, etc in my weekly D&D game. If you want to role play in D&D all you have to do is role play. It sounds like you are having problems with players not the game.

 

[Odhanan]

It's all in the eye of the beholder, really. You can stat an Expert3 and have him/her be one of the most flavorful NPCs ever seen. And this is possible with any game system. What's important is the outlook the user has on the tool.

Just to provide an example, 15 years ago gamers weren't talking so much about "balanced this" and "unbalanced that". That's crap-talk introduced with 3E, and gamers *choose* to make it an absolute focus source of all kinds of unecessary worries while in the end, just like 15 years ago, they are the ones making the game balanced or unbalanced.

It doesn't have much to do with the actual rules. Maybe it has to do with the plethora of supplements out there, and thus with marketing and OGL. But bottom line, that's the user who's taking the decision on what to do with the system, not the other way around.

 

[Shadowslayer]

I understand what you're getting at Will the chased. I won't debate you because your concerns are legit.

I'm gonna recommend castles and Crusades. I'm not going to sell you on it point by point...that's been done to death here already.

Its a far simpler game, feels like old D&D, and you can still use your minis.(though the game is not based around minis...so you don't need them for combat.)

Dollar wise, its a cheap game. Spend the 15-20 bucks for the PHB and try it. Or buy the condensed one from DriveThru...even cheaper.

 

[Ranger REG]

So sorry for the long post but it's been on my mind as of late and I'm just wondering, how many others have had similar feelings and thoughts on the evolution of this game we know and love? Has anyone out there found a way to use the d20 system in a way that encourages less minis/combat action? Hell, do I just need to find a new group to play with perhaps?
And my last question, are there new products or reprints of older ones that would be more suited to a guy with concerns like mine???
Thanks for your time folks!!!

Didn't PHB2 attempted to add roleplaying details with the new classes? Not that I have my own copy yet, but I thought it was a step in the right direction, despite criticism that it is merely a waste of ink and space and better serve for gamers to look them up in the dictionary for research into their role (at least that's how one Wizards' MB poster have put it).

As with any role-playing game, it begins with a story. If you can captivate your audience (i.e., players) and have them participate in the story whether interacting with villagers or having audience with the lord of the castle, you can involve them without resorting to dice-rolling. For every actions they make, always have a result or consequence ready for them. Challenge them with simple puzzle and see if they're interested in solving them, or give them a little mystery to explore.

 

[Willthechased]

Thanks guys! I understand that it looks a lot like the problem might just be me or my players and I thought so too for a while. When I had the same thing develop in a totally different group and had another friend who I don't game with even express a similar thought in passing I began to think differently. Perhaps a change up in a new campaign after a year break where I spell things out very clear right from the start- role guys, not roll...
I'll certainly look at Castles&Crusades as well, it sounds a lot like oD&D! Thanks for the tip!

 

[WayneLigon]

See, I remember D&D always using minitaures. They were not mentioned or shown specifically in the rule book, nor did we have the distinction between Small, Medium and Large base sizes and such but there were always a ton of minis involved.

When I first started playing D&D back with OD&D, the guy that ran a lot of our games had a massive fishing tackle box full of tiny drawers. It was stuffed with minis, of every creature type and race. Of course minis were lead back then; that thing must have weighed 40 pounds or more. All the DM's usually had a collection of minis, and they were almost always used.

There were just as many books 'back then', too. Remember all the small hardbacks TSR pumped out? Unearthed Arcana, Wilderness Survival Guide, and the rest - plus the issues of Dragon that had rules or classes you wanted to use, and that's if you're not counting third party materials? 2E had all the Complete XX Handbooks, as well as the Player's Option books later on. Both iterations of the game would require you, if you wished to use all the options, to lug around tons of books. This is again not a new thing.

The tactical/role-playing arguement has been going on for 30 years. It's not a new thing. 1E was not some magical wonderland where people stayed in character and everything was story driven. Those campaigns were exceptions. Most people played D&D as a beer-and-pretzels exercise, not all that far removed from a more complex board game.

It wasn't some rules-light wonderland, either. There were rules vacuums, and gamers abhore a vacuum more than nature does. Any GM worth his salt had pages of alternate rules, his own skill system, tons of tables about everything from social status to what color your hair was, and more besides.

No system is going to make your players want to roleplay rather than follow the carrot-stick of level-power-gold-magic items-level treadmill if they don't want to. None. Not C&C, not True20, not Savage Worlds, not Risus, nothing.

 

[Umbran]

Remember the old days when playing D&D didn't require you to lug a bunch of minis around? Or when all the books you needed could fit in a small book bag? Remember role-playing, not roll-playing?

I remember all those things. Did them last week.

It is true that a rule system can influence the method of play, but I don't at all buy the idea that D&D forces this, or even influences particularly strongly. My group only pulls out minis for complicated battles, when they'd be an actual aid to visualization. For simple combats, they simply aren't necessary, and you don't need to change the rules to play without the minis. We've never done otherwise, and never felt we had to do otherwise.

Much of the time, the root issue sits with the player and DM attitudes. Sometimes folks like to play up the minis wargame aspect, and that's just fine. If everyone wants that, it can be a lot of fun. But if that's not what you want... just don't do it. Who is making you?

 

[Glyfair]

See, I remember D&D always using minitaures. They were not mentioned or shown specifically in the rule book, nor did we have the distinction between Small, Medium and Large base sizes and such but there were always a ton of minis involved.

I agree. It wasn't too long after I started that I picked up some miniatures. At first it was mostly PC figures that had miniatures. Monsters were salt shakers, dice, or whatever was laying around. Later we had various things. We picked up the Steve Jackson cardboard heroes sets when they came out.

I think 3.0 & 3.5 are more friendly to miniatures and miniature substitutes (counters, tokens, etc). I don't think they are required, but you better have a top notch DM or you'll find the monsters gaining a great advantage as they manage to avoid attacks of opportunity, yet the playeres always seem to be where they have to take them to do what they want.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

While I agree with the common wisdom that you can play any game/rules-set and go for a certain feel or approach, I think that different systems encourage different types of play. I'd go with a system that encourages the style you prefer. Less headache, IMO.

My advice: check out Castles & Crusades (see why play C&C). In my case, C&C really fit the bit and revitalized my gaming. And check out Dragonsfoot; if C&C doesn't fit the bill, for you, some of the other games discussed, there, might (e.g. AD&D, Classic D&D, Lejendary Adventure, Hackmaster, Savage Worlds, etc).