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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Geoste" data-source="post: 3057280" data-attributes="member: 26090">So true, Raven. I've been the victim of such low Comeliness types when I spoke of such blasphemies.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek!    :eek:"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" /> Will: At any rate, I feel your pain. I can see your position clearly. I agree that the rules can and do encourage players to play a certain way. Some of the fault does indeed lie in the system, but OTOH, I can see how you'd rather keep playing a widely and heavily supported game. I'm in the same boat.Yes, there are better game systems out there, but the whole D&D thing snowballed into a massive thing. Inertia. It's to the point where the newer players have no clue about other RPGs - and most of those that do don't want to. Disgusting.*stokes the campfire* Back in my day, when we played 2E - and even 1E! - we knew about other RPG games and we liked it!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> Ah, here is my advice. Thanks Raven for the quote, but the answer is for Will: to discourage the whole "I want combat now!" mindset, I am now using Rolemaster's Arms Law combat rules for D20 D&D. I am talking about discouragement of combat by using something more realistic than the whole "I'm good, 100% until I fall below zero hit points" thing.With Arms Law, no longer does a character have to wait until zero or less HP to fall unconscious. They can get their butts creamed on the first hit if an opponent gets lucky. Therefore, combat is not so straightforward anymore. It's more realistic and gritty.Conversion is a cinch: for most bonuses, it's a straight +1 = +5%, and this can easily be done on the fly while you DM. Every point on the d20 is equal to 5%. I add an extra sheet for my players - a Combat Sheet if you will - and there is where I made all the easy d20 to d100 conversions for the PCs prior for play. Best of all, you can still keep playing D20 with all of it's supplements, adventures, etc.So, the results I have gotten out of this speak for themselves: if a player is going to mindlessly charge into a battle where he is outnumbered, then he is an idiot that deserves what he gets (most likely killed). Arms Law will make the players think twice about such folly and mindless violence. I have seen players begin to PLAN things out, and to even consider if a fight is worth it or not... in other words, they began to roleplay, even if that roleplay was about decision-making an ambush or some such thing. Give it time and they will return to roleplaying other non-combat matters such as your plots.BTW, before anyone mentions it: I do not buy into the whole critical fumbles disfavors the PCs thing (I limit fumbles to once a round per character anyway - all other times it is a normal miss).That's my solve. And it worked for me.-</blockquote>

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