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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8266808" data-attributes="member: 93670">You're entangling a few things as one & shifting the context of what makes them relevant in the process  "<a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway" target="_blank">What Kind of Lame Power Is Heart, Anyway?</a>"  is a lot more applicable than you are trying to make it out to be by talking about 15 different powers, if you look at the entry it even accounts for the possibility of them being powerful.  It's a bit strange that in a single post you would ignore so much of how D&D actually works to dismiss the lame heart power applicability in the ae post where you accuse someone else of "ignoring how D&D actually works"[spoiler='The breakdown on this tangent of D&D doesn't work that way"']<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"This refers to a special ability of someone on a team such as a <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand" target="_blank">Five-Man Band</a> who is <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CastSpeciation" target="_blank">so specialized</a> as to <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlessedWithSuck" target="_blank">seem useless in most situations</a>. Usually, it's because the ability has no direct combat capabilities." <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">That is literally the argument that was made earlier when someone tried to dismiss the combat disparity between casters & quadratic fighters  when pointing at the ther "pillars" of the game.  Usually the three pillars are combat social & exploration or similar.  If casters were all monstrouslypowerful in those other two there would probably be very different discussions, except that's not where their real power lies & those elements are minimized in 5e/d&d in general or not a significant portion of an average game as literally every one of wotc's HC adventures demonstrate.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sometimes, a power that is more badass on paper can be lame in practice, <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There are a lot of examples of these where there is some spell perfectly suited for a highly specific highly contrived situation unlikely to be a significant need without some alternate solution.  That alternate solution is critical because it typically takes less time than is required to change up spells after a long rest(something druids clerics & bards can also do)  The alternative is that you run into <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThisLooksLikeAJobForAquaman" target="_blank">looks like a job for aquaman</a> style GM hyjinx where the campaign depends on the caster using one specific ability & no other, but Descent into avernus displays the absurdity of this by taking one of the most credible one involving the 7th level planeshift spell & creating a low level adventure that requires neither the rare gm provided plane specific component nor the spell itself to be cast in order to enter avernus or return home. This whole thing is broken further down in the trope though, </li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">usually when 1) <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerIncontinence" target="_blank">the power is hard to control</a>,<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Whatever you consider concentration & concentration checks for taking damage, these conditions are met  too.  You could also include spells with excessive no cost saves that are granted free after a target fails the first save to keep the spell from ever getting applied at all save in here as well</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> 2) the power's activation/requirement is ridiculously complex and/or the situation where it can be used rarely comes up (see <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThisLooksLikeAJobForAquaman" target="_blank">This Looks Like a Job for Aquaman</a> when it does), <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A niche spell is only an option if it's on a PC's class spell list actually in their spellbook.  Even if that niche spell is an option it's still not an option if the spell is not prepared or not known because it's too niche to prep for some random off chance where it might be marginally easier than just doing one of the other trivial non-"job for aquaman" solutions</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3) the user - who normally isn't lame - is facing <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KungfuProofMook" target="_blank">a problem</a> or is <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourMagicsNoGoodHere" target="_blank">in a situation</a> that <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerfulAndHelpless" target="_blank">their powers can't solve</a>,<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Energy resist, energy immune, legendary resist, high saves,  antimagic zones... Yep casters can tick off this box too</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4) the user lacks enough ingenuity and creativity to use it, <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Most spells aren't very difficult to use, even the niche ones are just use them if an option if prepared  if there is not a comperable or  better non-spell slot using option.  The problem comes into the fact that players are not omniscient & can not generally predict when those niche spells might possibly come into play during a given session because there is not enough leeway to just prepare a ton of them while still being a useful contributing member of the party.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5) the power <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerAtAPrice" target="_blank">has a big tradeoff</a> such that the user cannot use it too often without <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerousForbiddenTechnique" target="_blank">endangering themselves</a>, <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">this applies to all of the niche spells because any known/prepared spell for a known/prepared class  has an identical cost to know/prepare as any other spell. There might be a situation wheredarkvision (I'm not picking this at random, someone noted it earlier as a great spell!) is just the spell for aquaman, but this is such an ex extreme niche spell that even the most compulsive spell collecting wizard is probably not going to waste gold scribing it.  A druid could prep darkvision tomorrow by not preparing healing word moonbeam spike growh or whatever... but that's a gigantic tradeoff because those are great spells that are almost always useful between long rests. </li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">6) the power's effect is too small to be effective.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Absolutely, this is the big problem.  The disparity in combat isn't evidence that casters need to deal more damage  & that's another tangent really.  The disparity shows how much ground  casters need to be making up in the other areas that their spells allow & as the last 5 points of lame heart power show they obviously do not even come close.</li> </ul></li> </ul>Most importantly, the problem is the implementation of casters themselves not making up for the spike & at will damage disparity rather than if a particular trope fts well enough to be good as a short hand descriptive summary of the situation or not.[/spoiler]If how casters worked in past editions were truly immaterial that would have solved a lot of these problems preemptively by WotC not putting so much design effort into thwarting the problems of past editions as if the way they work in the current edition justified such an extreme combined result as we see in 5e.  There were very few spells in past editions that could be interrupted after being cast, take web, wall of whatever, curse, slow, most any save or suck/save or lose spell, haste, bull's strength/cats grace/etc, death ward, & many others that are pretty much all concentration with numerous power reductions targeting the problems of past editions while 5e has quadratic fighters & monsters designed with extra tools aimed at thwarting the problems of past editions.  Instead we would see things like "iterative attacks at full attack bonus against low ac monsters each adding weapon/stat/etc mods to each attack dramatically outpace single all or nothing spike damage actions that deal slightly more than one attack but less than the whole chain, perhaps we should change resistance from 50% to a flat number  or something like 50% up to Y damage  rethink how we are & are not applying  resistance/vulnerability to monsters.  Also why the heck did we put this & that in?" or any number of other things that could target problems unique to 5e.  Instead we have a significant amount of design space aimed at overcompensating for the problems of past editions. Subjectivity goes a long way, but you are arguing a point irrationally  far beyond that.</blockquote>

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