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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cap'n Kobold" data-source="post: 8267486" data-attributes="member: 6802951">Well of course. Those are cantrips. They're the at-will single-target damage of a heavily resource-based class for whom single-target damage is the 2nd worst thing they do. Unless your DM is very good, its quite unlikely that a mid+ tier wizard will be casting cantrips for more than half of their rounds in combat. It is a good assumption that they are likely to cast a concentration spell which will be supplying "effect" (or damage equivalent) while they are throwing instant spells or cantrips in addition.Utility spells often automatically achieve things that a skill check might be required to do, or flat out do things that no skill check, no matter how high could achieve.In combat, we're comparing the the thing wizards do 2nd worst with what fighters do best, partly because number vs number is easy, but mostly because fighrters just don't get anything that can compare to the utility, control or other nondamage effects wizards have access to. I mean you seem to have strong feelings on the matter, so I can understand you making it a comparison of damage rather than control options. Comparing grappling and shoving to wizard control spells is going to indicate a much greater discrepancy of power than single-target damage does.What sort of nondamage areas do you believe spells are lagging behind in?You're going to have to break this sentence down a little further for me to understand it I'm afraid.You're saying that in your games, Wizards just cannot compare with Fighters in terms of the usefulness that they bring to the party?Is that correct?I mean I think it is established that wizards aren't completely gimped in combat, even if they are playing to their weakness rather than their strengths. And fighters have skill proficiencies, so there isn't nothing they can do outside of combat.If you're asking for a numbers breakdown, what sort of thing do you mean? There isn't really a way to compare since it depends on the situations that come up. Most of the wizards I've seen in play devote a reasonable amount of spells to utility, but it seems likely from this thread that in other groups, the wizards focus on single-target damage. Outside of running a party containing a "typical wizard" and "typical fighter" through a "typical adventure" at a "typical level", there are too many variables.I can boil it down to this however: In my experience, most wizard players are able to leverage their utility spells and rituals to significant effect.However, even on the wizard's worst day, when all their spell slots have been spent on combat and none of their rituals are applicable, they still have what the fighter does on their best day.</blockquote>

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