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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ph0rk" data-source="post: 8267688" data-attributes="member: 16266">You are assuming every fighter can perform as well as the GWM/PA or SS/PA fighter. That is very much not true. Further, those fighters have to devote what little customization resources they have at those levels to that combat performance, and are then utterly reliant on a short rest-rich adventuring day, much like Warlocks.So, an average nonhuman battlemaster fighter has two feats at level 7, must spend one on maxing str and one on GWM; they may have picked up fighting technique for an extra sup die. With 65% accuracy (the standard design goal), and having foreknowledge of target AC, they can range from 25.89 DPR (over 10,000 iterations) by only using Sup die for Precision Attack when they miss by 4 or less over 11.8 rounds - not too bad. If they burn hard and use a sup die when they miss by as much as 8 they can manage 39.686 DPR, but they last only 5.9 rounds. In both cases subtract one round if they choose to use action surge, and this damage accounts for crits and bonus action attacks when crits happen. Assuming greatsword because it's better DPR than other choices.That's pretty good, but it's also highly optimized. And that fighter can't manage to have expertise in any skill or much in the way of int, wis, or cha, so their rolls on those skills are not good. The same goes for thieve's tools, the SS fighter will have a better shot than the GWM fighter there, but they can't ever gain expertise in thieve's tools without rogue levels (or some other weird stuff like artificer levels).If you don't understand why the low stat no expertise skill check to high stat with expertise skill check gap is massive, then you do not understand the system and there's no point going further.You can choose to build a fighter with two shots of expertise, but you're using two feats to do it, and not having GWM. Precision attack isn't that great without GWM (or SS), and is more or less on par with other fighters. An Eldritch Knight actually might be in the lead at level 7 (with War Magic), and can regularly put out (2*12*.65 + 2*.05*7 + .65*4.5) or 19.225 DPR on average, assuming a greatsword and either green flame blade or booming blade, single target, no rider. However they can do that all day, which is nice.19.225 DPRA PAM user (no GWM) can manage 19.075 - and that PAM user could be a paladin with other options for spike damage. The EK can't do both that and War Magic, but a Champion could: and would move to 19.625 DPR.There is no way to talk about these other fighters while also talking about GWM/SS and PA. That's as broken as broken dpr is in this system. Remove Precision Attack or GWM/SS and it all falls apart, though, and advantage isn't as easily on-tap (though samurai look pretty good if they manage to have enough targets or one long-lived target to live through a fighting spirit and action surge round, but that relies again on GWM/SS).So, talking about a GWM/PA battlemaster is already cherrypicking the absolute best DPR a fighter can manage.A warlock (who has a wide array of skills as an option (with high stats for them, if social) and rituals to contribute to either social or exploration encounters, can do essentially nothing at all in terms of optimization and manage 14.2 DPR, at range, with no-save target repositioning and easy access to advantage.A wizard (not built for sustained DPR) will crap out 7.7 DPR with fire bolt, however if the player cares much about DPR they'll probably make a bladesinger instead. They can put out 14.2 DPR (closer to 16 DPR if they push dex to 20). This scales up quickly, and by tier III they outpace an eldritch knight! No one calls a blast warlock a DPR slouch, and if a wizard can be built to do similar DPR, that's something. A bladesinger can also pump out regular cantrips and longbow shot: 13.45 DPR; this scales well into Tier III also. These wizards have spells to use, too, and a fireball does things to massed weak targets a battlemaster can only dream of.I don't know about your combats, but an extra 4-5 damage a round for the entire party's damage output is rarely the deciding factor.On the other hand, the ability to fly, deceive, persuade, or pick a lock can open up entirely new side adventures that a crowbar cannot match.Unless of course every single fighter is a battlemaster in your world, but then we are talking about battlemasters, and we need to keep the feat tax for that build in mind when talking about social and exploration. GWM isn't sweet talking that information broker or helping you make perception or investigation checks.</blockquote>

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