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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8267939" data-attributes="member: 93670">Once again.  Give a different one!  You are going around in circles complaining that the examples of damage disparities in combat are a bad metric while making efforts to avoid admitting merit in the problems you are arguing against being an issue as you justify why you shouldn't be expected to provide support for your position.  Yes buffs debuffs & controls are are "hard to quantify", however the damage disparity gives an objective metric for what kind of weight they need to pull and they fall obscenely short of doing so.  Later in this very post you even admit merit to some of the reasons I've already stated they fail at doing so as justification for not supporting your position.  There might be areas we agree on & areas we disagree on, but you are attemting to claim all areas being called a problem are not problems with little more than trust me to support thatOne of the positions you have been dismissing as a point lacking merit is that the niche spells are too niche & too far into coincidental corner cases for various reasons people have detailed repeatedly in this thread. if a significant chunk of what you think  is the wizard's true strength is something anyone can credibly claim"what if that situation just doesn't come up in the campaign?"  You have confirmed that point is not only one with merit but so true that you can't even avoid proving it while arguing against the other problems. The easy solution to that quagmire of a"situation" you want to avoid is admitting merit  of that problem & moving on to what you feel is a strength.  Doing that might look like this "Yea there are too many spells that are too niche to justify the state of everything else given limitations on spells gained/prepared but I still think this other issue is being overblown because yadayadayada".   It's not about what class is better or worse, the problem being argued is that wizard is not good enough to justify the state of a wide array of things repeatedly brought up in this thread.The problem there is that it comes with significant opportunity cost in combat while  those "mundane classes" are better at both combat and those other pillars.  The spells you allude to are so niche &impossible to predict a need for that those mundane classes will generally just do them rather than waiting for the wizard to take a long rest so the wizard has "some chance to shine".  You've said that the wizard's crown is not in combat  and are moving on to add that the wizard shouldn't expect to shine in the other two pillars either but once again refuse to give specifics that would allow discussion.Concentration is massively overused.  Magic resistance is massively overused. Legendary resistance is massively overused  Spells have excessive saves freely given even after the target fails the initial save or nothing happens save. Spells are dramatically undertuned lest they trod on some poor "mundane class" "chance to shine".  The solution needs to correct that collective overcompensation trying to thwart the problems of old editions in a meaningful fashionThat is literally one of the problems.  Wotc didn't stop there, they also went on to downtune the spells themselves to counter the 3.5 problems of those spells on their own then went on to build monsters  to thwart the problems of 3.5. Then went on to raise the bar on martials to counter other problems of 3.5.  Everything combines into a giant overcompensation.Four  spells & a vague category of spells is not a class & those spells fall far short of bridging the contribution gap as you yourself all but admit by roping in generally vague & nonspecific niche spells  that might maybe shine unless "that situation just doesn't come up in the campaign".  We can't have this discussion while relying on a build hiding behind the quantum ogre to be all things at all times & draw upon any possible spell in any possible situation.  We especially  can't do that because you refuse to admit there is merit in any of the problems being raised while failing to provide support for your position that the problems being raised are entirely without merit.I & others have asked you repeatedly to give us some other metric that you feel shows the wizard's real domain of greatness whatever you think that is.  The only requirement is that you need to actually support it without foisting support of your position onto those you disagree with or an implied "trust me".  Stop complaining you don't like the metric or don't feel it's fair to your position & give a new one that supports itself.  The one you choose doesn't even need to prove all problems nonproblems  as long as you simply admit x and/or y are still a problem while showing what you think is the true domain of strength for the wizardIs this a joke?  Both wizard and fighter include the words "Choose two skills from:"  Stop complaining that the problems being raised are because people aren't looking at the wizard's strengths & post a build showing what you think it's strengths are.   Keep in mind that the wizard only has so many spells in their spellbook  & can't simply pick whatever spells from their class spell list to swap between combat social exploration etc days like you seem to be suggesting now.  Which assortment would you choose to  support your position given the limits of how many spells a wizard gains & wotc's lack of effort in providing guidance telling GMs  they <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/sane-magic-item-prices.462510/post-8260051" target="_blank">"will want to be generous" with scrolls/spellbooks/etc like they did with magic weapons</a> . Why do you make those choices & how do they support your position that all of the problems resulting in an undertuned wizard class as a whole?</blockquote>

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