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Long Rests vs Short Rests
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8269249" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>That's a problem because the disparity continues to expand at high levels. It makes for a situation where a handicap is applied to the least valued contribution. The problem is not the magic resistance alone, it's in the whole energy</p><p>By resist/immune alongside a resistance wotc rogues out of their way to urge generosity and trivisl cost to remove in multiple publications.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Your later point about good faith discussion is a good one related to this. Good faith discussion takes two & one side of the discussion wants to stick to hypothetical edge case situations that assume the wizard has the spell available and has it prepared when any given edge case comes up while dismissing the fact that those niche cases are too niche reliably to be prepared for because they <em>could</em> come up. The level7 build was an attempt [USER=6788736]@Flamestrike[/USER] made to push things out of the realm of quantum hypotheticals.</p><p></p><p>There was also the part where I explained why your assessment of the spell was somewhat in conflict with RAW <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />. Even if we say for discussion that it's "wonderful dealing with weather effects outside." The problem still remains that such situation are ones created to make it useful and are not very common as the party needs to be resting outside where there is bad weather that the gm pretty much declares is a problem. That is not the reason why wizards are basically forced to use one of their 2/level choices on it like fighters are basically forced to take one of a handful of powerful feats though. That reason is so when attacked during a rest the rest of the party can use it as s bunker while the wizard stays in place not doing anything or just goes to get pizza if it looks like its going to be s long fight. Yes it makes the fighter and rogue feel awesome at that point. Even the cleric sorcerer warlock & so on can step out to cast &step back in feeling safe. The wizard however is just given an extreme dose of just how much the rest of the party is carrying them when the fight that probably didn't need the bunker ends with finishing the long rest to recover any spent abilities along with the ho that would have been lost if the bunker were not there. There is <em>someone</em> getting a "Cool cinematic moment" when all of those things align, but it's not the wizard. Rest person is anything it the guy who says "I stay inside the dome to keep it active and ready an action to cast a cantrip if something gets inside" round after round until the fight ends and everyone who did stuff during the fight finishes their recovery & gets back the hitpoints they might have lost if not for the tiny hut.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I appreciate the effort but I phrased nothing your omissions in the build like that to make sure there was no confusion when [USER=6788736]@Flamestrike[/USER] posts the adventure if the spell list turns out to be too niche or the wrong niche. Given that the adventure is already written having it change isn't a concern.</p><p></p><p>So you refuse to provide a build for an adventure because you are worried it won't be useful for an adventure written two days ago? Even if we say that is a reasonable assumption to make for purposes of discussion can you explain how a PC wizard is going to be better prepared with knowledge & foresight needed to preplan so all the niche edge case spells you keep alluding to are available in their spellbook & prepared when those edge cases come up? Are you worried that doing so might result in demonstrate evidence supportign the problem of too many spells that are too niche for too minor an effect even though you've been saying it's not an issue? Are you claiming that anyone playing a wizard is setting themselves up for a trap or an idiot?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Those classes make a more difficult statistical comparison with too many bits that need assumptions to be made. Fighter has simple math & due to oversimplification basically one job (hit things). Fighter does that job very well & any other areas they can contribute to like the warlord inspired GWM build with one extra feat someone posted a few pages back is an extra cherry on top. </p><p></p><p>The bolded statement that I provided "zero evidence" is flatly untrue. I've provided extensive number crunching & comparison in the thread including a google spreadsheet with even more. You and others dismissed that as not relevant to the wizard's strength. Sure if you say so, far be it from me to dictate what the wizard's true strength is though. Maybe your right & there is some style of wizard build that only you & a couple others can see, but we can't discuss that with quantum builds & endless hypothetical edge cases that as someone phrased it <a href="https://www.enworld.org/goto/post?id=8267693" target="_blank">earlier</a> risks running into leads to spell selections that might not come up in the <strong><u><em>campaign</em></u></strong>. I'd be perfectly happy if the evidence I provided was shown to be irrelevant due to some new & revolutionary style of wizard building, but that's a revolutionary breakthrough that takes more than edge cases, hypotheticals, & contrivances so you need to show it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8269249, member: 93670"] That's a problem because the disparity continues to expand at high levels. It makes for a situation where a handicap is applied to the least valued contribution. The problem is not the magic resistance alone, it's in the whole energy By resist/immune alongside a resistance wotc rogues out of their way to urge generosity and trivisl cost to remove in multiple publications. Your later point about good faith discussion is a good one related to this. Good faith discussion takes two & one side of the discussion wants to stick to hypothetical edge case situations that assume the wizard has the spell available and has it prepared when any given edge case comes up while dismissing the fact that those niche cases are too niche reliably to be prepared for because they [I]could[/I] come up. The level7 build was an attempt [USER=6788736]@Flamestrike[/USER] made to push things out of the realm of quantum hypotheticals. There was also the part where I explained why your assessment of the spell was somewhat in conflict with RAW ;). Even if we say for discussion that it's "wonderful dealing with weather effects outside." The problem still remains that such situation are ones created to make it useful and are not very common as the party needs to be resting outside where there is bad weather that the gm pretty much declares is a problem. That is not the reason why wizards are basically forced to use one of their 2/level choices on it like fighters are basically forced to take one of a handful of powerful feats though. That reason is so when attacked during a rest the rest of the party can use it as s bunker while the wizard stays in place not doing anything or just goes to get pizza if it looks like its going to be s long fight. Yes it makes the fighter and rogue feel awesome at that point. Even the cleric sorcerer warlock & so on can step out to cast &step back in feeling safe. The wizard however is just given an extreme dose of just how much the rest of the party is carrying them when the fight that probably didn't need the bunker ends with finishing the long rest to recover any spent abilities along with the ho that would have been lost if the bunker were not there. There is [I]someone[/I] getting a "Cool cinematic moment" when all of those things align, but it's not the wizard. Rest person is anything it the guy who says "I stay inside the dome to keep it active and ready an action to cast a cantrip if something gets inside" round after round until the fight ends and everyone who did stuff during the fight finishes their recovery & gets back the hitpoints they might have lost if not for the tiny hut. I appreciate the effort but I phrased nothing your omissions in the build like that to make sure there was no confusion when [USER=6788736]@Flamestrike[/USER] posts the adventure if the spell list turns out to be too niche or the wrong niche. Given that the adventure is already written having it change isn't a concern. So you refuse to provide a build for an adventure because you are worried it won't be useful for an adventure written two days ago? Even if we say that is a reasonable assumption to make for purposes of discussion can you explain how a PC wizard is going to be better prepared with knowledge & foresight needed to preplan so all the niche edge case spells you keep alluding to are available in their spellbook & prepared when those edge cases come up? Are you worried that doing so might result in demonstrate evidence supportign the problem of too many spells that are too niche for too minor an effect even though you've been saying it's not an issue? Are you claiming that anyone playing a wizard is setting themselves up for a trap or an idiot? Those classes make a more difficult statistical comparison with too many bits that need assumptions to be made. Fighter has simple math & due to oversimplification basically one job (hit things). Fighter does that job very well & any other areas they can contribute to like the warlord inspired GWM build with one extra feat someone posted a few pages back is an extra cherry on top. The bolded statement that I provided "zero evidence" is flatly untrue. I've provided extensive number crunching & comparison in the thread including a google spreadsheet with even more. You and others dismissed that as not relevant to the wizard's strength. Sure if you say so, far be it from me to dictate what the wizard's true strength is though. Maybe your right & there is some style of wizard build that only you & a couple others can see, but we can't discuss that with quantum builds & endless hypothetical edge cases that as someone phrased it [URL='https://www.enworld.org/goto/post?id=8267693']earlier[/URL] risks running into leads to spell selections that might not come up in the [B][U][I]campaign[/I][/U][/B]. I'd be perfectly happy if the evidence I provided was shown to be irrelevant due to some new & revolutionary style of wizard building, but that's a revolutionary breakthrough that takes more than edge cases, hypotheticals, & contrivances so you need to show it. [/QUOTE]
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