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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7749184" data-attributes="member: 42582">But the fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue don't all have that ability. Which is why I asked what class builds and powers you had in mind.In all versions of D&amp;D, every class has the ability to declare an action in combat (typically either a weapon attack, a device use, or a spell cast) which then typically (not always) requires a d20 throw to determine if it takes effect (either a to hit roll by one party, or a saving throw by another) and which, it it takes effect, inflicts damage and/or a condition.I've never heard anyone suggest that this makes the difference between fighters, clerics, MUs, etc pointless.4e puts those abilities into a common suit for recovery purposes. That's a change. And it allows non-spell users to impose conditions. That's also a change (although some D&amp;D variants anticipated it, eg OA martial arts). But the basic idea that the typical combat action is a d20 roll to impose damage and/or conditions is not a change.EDIT: To try and swing back a bit closer to the thread topic, one could ask what is necessary for a class to &quot;feel like&quot; a D&amp;D/PF wizard:* Should trigger saving throws rather than use attack rolls;

* Should have superior access to condition infliction compared to &quot;martial&quot; types;

* Should have a mechanically distinctive resource suite.5e D&amp;D seem to hit at least the first two, and tends towards the third. Obviously 4e departed from the first and third, and had less of the second as well.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7749184, member: 42582"] But the fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue don't all have that ability. Which is why I asked what class builds and powers you had in mind. In all versions of D&D, every class has the ability to declare an action in combat (typically either a weapon attack, a device use, or a spell cast) which then typically (not always) requires a d20 throw to determine if it takes effect (either a to hit roll by one party, or a saving throw by another) and which, it it takes effect, inflicts damage and/or a condition. I've never heard anyone suggest that this makes the difference between fighters, clerics, MUs, etc pointless. 4e puts those abilities into a common suit for recovery purposes. That's a change. And it allows non-spell users to impose conditions. That's also a change (although some D&D variants anticipated it, eg OA martial arts). But the basic idea that the typical combat action is a d20 roll to impose damage and/or conditions is not a change. EDIT: To try and swing back a bit closer to the thread topic, one could ask what is necessary for a class to "feel like" a D&D/PF wizard: [indent]* Should trigger saving throws rather than use attack rolls; * Should have superior access to condition infliction compared to "martial" types; * Should have a mechanically distinctive resource suite.[/indent] 5e D&D seem to hit at least the first two, and tends towards the third. Obviously 4e departed from the first and third, and had less of the second as well. [/QUOTE]

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