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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7411820" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I hadn't read your posts about BitD when I wrote and posted my comment about PbtA as "advanced", but it seems that we were thinking along similar lines.</p><p></p><p>OK, thanks for this more productive reply!</p><p></p><p>I don't think I agree with this. I think it's not correct even if one confines the focus to more "traditional" RPGs. For instance, Rolemaster <em>takes away</em> the various resolution systems of AD&D (which I think [MENTION=21169]Doug McCrae[/MENTION] mentioned upthread - d6, d8, d10, d12, d20 or d100 for feats of strength, depending on the STR score and the details of the feat; different rules for different sorts of perceptual endeavour,; etc) and replaces them with a single method of skill/ability checks.</p><p></p><p>To approach the issue more generally: what is the purpose of <em>a rule</em>? In AD&D, many rules exist simpluy to answer a discrete question (<em>Can I open the door?</em> Can I hear what' on the other side of it? Can I find a secret door?). Provided the list of discrete questions is kept relatively short (ie the questions one might ask while playing a dungeon-exploration wargame) then this approach may not cause issues, and may even be good design if it helps each different aspect of dungeon exploration feel unique.</p><p></p><p>In RM and RQ, however, the list of questions is in principle unlimited - because they self-consciously establish a vista for play that goes far beyond dungeon-crawling - and so the rules get reframed: the rules address questions like <em>How well can I see?</em> <em>How well can I sing? How well can I climb?</em>, and the resolution systems are intended to provide generic answers to these questions of "how well"?</p><p></p><p>In a "story now" game, the list of questions is also, in principle, unlimited - although particular games may confine the list on a genre basis (like BitD that [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION] has referenced) - but the rules answer a different sort of question again: <em>What happens when I respond to a challenge by searching? What happens when I respond to a challenge by singing? What happens when I respond to a challenge by climbing?</em></p><p></p><p>It may be possible to move from AD&D through RM/RQ to (say) BW without actually changing the rules that tell us a thief's Climb Wall number, while having the meaning of the rule change: in AD&D it answers the question <em>Can I climb this wall?</em>; in more RM-ish play it answers the question <em>How well can I climb?</em>; in BW-ish play it answers the question <em>What happens when I respond to a challenge by climbing</em>. Bot to achieve those changes you would have to change a lot of other stuff about how you approach and play the game: different framing of challenges; different ways of interpreting outcomes; different ways of establishing consequencdes (both for success and failure); etc.</p><p></p><p>And likewise an AD&D thief might have Climb Walls 90%, a RM character Climbing +90, and a BW character Climb 6D; but these aren't just different examples of the same game element with nothing but mathematical converrsions required to move between them.</p><p></p><p>The conclusion I want to draw from this discussion is: you can't just talk about "removing a problem rule" as if it was self-evident what that means. You need to consider what purpose the rules serves, what questions it is meant to answer, and how answering those questions feeds into the dynamics of play. Cortex+ Heroic (to pick an example) isn't just AD&D but with all the duration and money accounting elements stripped out. It involves an extremeley different approach to everything from the meaning of Climb D6 or Supreme Sorcery D12 on a character sheet or statblock, to the meaning of Wealthy as a character desriptor, to the meaning of "Every time you acquire gold from an enemy, earn 3XP" in a Milestone list.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7411820, member: 42582"] I hadn't read your posts about BitD when I wrote and posted my comment about PbtA as "advanced", but it seems that we were thinking along similar lines. OK, thanks for this more productive reply! I don't think I agree with this. I think it's not correct even if one confines the focus to more "traditional" RPGs. For instance, Rolemaster [I]takes away[/I] the various resolution systems of AD&D (which I think [MENTION=21169]Doug McCrae[/MENTION] mentioned upthread - d6, d8, d10, d12, d20 or d100 for feats of strength, depending on the STR score and the details of the feat; different rules for different sorts of perceptual endeavour,; etc) and replaces them with a single method of skill/ability checks. To approach the issue more generally: what is the purpose of [I]a rule[/I]? In AD&D, many rules exist simpluy to answer a discrete question ([I]Can I open the door?[/I] Can I hear what' on the other side of it? Can I find a secret door?). Provided the list of discrete questions is kept relatively short (ie the questions one might ask while playing a dungeon-exploration wargame) then this approach may not cause issues, and may even be good design if it helps each different aspect of dungeon exploration feel unique. In RM and RQ, however, the list of questions is in principle unlimited - because they self-consciously establish a vista for play that goes far beyond dungeon-crawling - and so the rules get reframed: the rules address questions like [I]How well can I see?[/I] [I]How well can I sing? How well can I climb?[/I], and the resolution systems are intended to provide generic answers to these questions of "how well"? In a "story now" game, the list of questions is also, in principle, unlimited - although particular games may confine the list on a genre basis (like BitD that [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION] has referenced) - but the rules answer a different sort of question again: [I]What happens when I respond to a challenge by searching? What happens when I respond to a challenge by singing? What happens when I respond to a challenge by climbing?[/I] It may be possible to move from AD&D through RM/RQ to (say) BW without actually changing the rules that tell us a thief's Climb Wall number, while having the meaning of the rule change: in AD&D it answers the question [I]Can I climb this wall?[/I]; in more RM-ish play it answers the question [I]How well can I climb?[/I]; in BW-ish play it answers the question [I]What happens when I respond to a challenge by climbing[/I]. Bot to achieve those changes you would have to change a lot of other stuff about how you approach and play the game: different framing of challenges; different ways of interpreting outcomes; different ways of establishing consequencdes (both for success and failure); etc. And likewise an AD&D thief might have Climb Walls 90%, a RM character Climbing +90, and a BW character Climb 6D; but these aren't just different examples of the same game element with nothing but mathematical converrsions required to move between them. The conclusion I want to draw from this discussion is: you can't just talk about "removing a problem rule" as if it was self-evident what that means. You need to consider what purpose the rules serves, what questions it is meant to answer, and how answering those questions feeds into the dynamics of play. Cortex+ Heroic (to pick an example) isn't just AD&D but with all the duration and money accounting elements stripped out. It involves an extremeley different approach to everything from the meaning of Climb D6 or Supreme Sorcery D12 on a character sheet or statblock, to the meaning of Wealthy as a character desriptor, to the meaning of "Every time you acquire gold from an enemy, earn 3XP" in a Milestone list. [/QUOTE]
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