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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7438588" data-attributes="member: 4937">I think you are looking at the problem wrong.  Martials remain relevant in combat relevant to spellcasters for a pretty long time, especially if you are careful about limiting the spell lists and not bring in every single published spell.The problem is largely that martials do not remain relevant outside of combat compared to spellcasters very quickly.  This is because martials are limited generally to doing what is realistic while spellcasters are allowed to break the rules of reality.   This means that martials are very poor problem solvers outside of combat.The second big problem martials have is that absolutist nature of 3.X especially at high levels.  Typically, the DC of a saving throw (or grapple check) vastly outstrips the ability of a PC to make such saves while at the same time the consequences of failure are steadily decreasing.   At low levels a PC might have a 50% shot of avoiding a save or suck effect, while at higher levels they might only have a 25% chance of avoiding a save or die effect.  This is a problem unique to 3.X (in 1e and 2e, with effectively static DCs, high level PCs and high level fighters especially rarely failed saving throws).  The solution high level characters have to adopt is powerful magical defenses like Mindblank, Death Ward, Freedom of Action, and Heroe's Feast.  But this means that spellcasters are self-reliant whereas martial classes are reliant on spellcasters to be effective.  This is a disparity that is increasingly felt over time.So what is needed is making skills aggressively useful by lowering the DC of epic skill usage to reflect the idea that anyone above 6th level is a superhero so that skill investment can compare with spell ability.   This may necessitate adding skill points and new skills to the fighter class and to martial classes generally.  Likewise, you need feats or simply built in abilities that give martials the ability to be more self-reliant both in and out of combat and not simply means of increasing the damage that a martial class can do in combat because being relevant in combat is rarely the problem with a well built martial class.So think about what problems a fighter actually has and fix those.   a) Fighters need ways to recover hit points (or equivalently avoid damage) without relying on magical healing.  Can you think of ways to do that without breaking verisimilitude and simply making all class spell-casters?  (That is, avoid the 4e solution.)b) Fighters need ways to recover from bad saving throws and shorten or mitigate conditions that are inflicted on them.   Mind effecting abilities are particularly important here - ways to break domination or paralysis and so forth are needed.c) Fighters need ways to overcome or environmental hazards.d) Fighters need to become more and more tank like superheroes at higher levels, with increased movement rates and mobility, and the ability to inflict damage on their environment or otherwise shape their environment in the way spellcasters can.e) Fighters need ways to mitigate their reliance on magic or buffing by being always self-buffed.At the same time, you have to keep firmly in mind that every spell in your spell-list is a new class power you are granting a spellcasting class and you want to in particular avoid introducing spells that obsolete and replace the abilities you are giving to martials.</blockquote>

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