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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Philotomy Jurament" data-source="post: 4673820" data-attributes="member: 20854">Yeah, me too.  Not only do I think it's overpowered for its level, but I also think it's more of a magic-user spell than a cleric spell.  I didn't notice it in there until my players started using it, but I got rid of it as quickly as I could.Yep -- exactly.  I was looking for the "old school" archetypes.  That's one of the reasons I tried C&C to begin with: it seemed to offer what I wanted in an "in print" game that had a buzz.Basically, I want the qualities of the archetype to precede and affect the system (or subsystem) design.  In C&C, the SIEGE engine sometimes causes the universally applied system design to precede and affect the qualities of the archetype.True.  I was lumping thieves in because of the way their class skills can affect the surprise chances in OD&D and 1e -- but that's stealth, not perception.  (They do get better in hear noise, though, so you might call them a "perceptive class" in that way.)Yeah, the C&C ranger is potent, and could probably be toned down a bit.  That said, though, I'm not as worried about balance as I am about modeling the class or archetype.  I'd apply balance through the XP advancement chart (i.e. slower for more powerful classes).I considered that, but I want the 1st level Ranger to outshine the 1st level Cleric (and probably the 4th level Cleric, too).  The problem is that I prefer for class to be very important (e.g. I think the fact that a Ranger is a Ranger should trump the Cleric's Wisdom, as far as ambush detection), and C&C's mechanics dilute class importance in a variety of ways.  I also have a problem with the surprise probabilities, themselves, apart from the way surprise works with the classes.  Again, it just didn't model surprise like I wanted it to.  I ended up house-ruling surprise, completely, and dropped in a %-based system (essentially the B/X D&D system using d% instead of d6).  These days I'm using <a href="http://www.philotomy.com/#surprise" target="_blank">a very 1e-ish surprise subsystem with my OD&D game</a>.Really, that's a good example of my "C&C experience" over time.  I started off liking it a lot, and was very enthusiastic.  Over time, I found things I didn't like, and started modifying them to be more like "old school D&D."  I gutted surprise, I replaced the saving throw system, I edited the spell lists, I found myself relying on the SIEGE engine less-and-less for handling non-combat actions, I changed the movement in combat rules, et cetera.  Sometimes I'm really dense, but eventually even I realized that what I really wanted was old school D&D, and that I should quit trying to hammer on C&C, reinventing the wheel, and just play the older systems.</blockquote>

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