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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7728783" data-attributes="member: 42582">So the players are kibitzing on the GM's game?One issue here is what is meant by action declaration - I think the idea that &quot;players can only say what their PCs want&quot; is ambiguous over possible meanings of action declaration.Thinking first from the perspective of the fiction, (A) one meaning of action declaration is &quot;My character wants to do this&quot;. So all the changes in the fiction is my character's inner state (desires).Another meaning of action declaration is (B) &quot;My character tries to do this&quot; - so the player's declaration of an action brings about changes in the fiction (eg my PC's body is moving, so other stuff is being affected by it - we need to look to the resolution process to learn exactly what and how)There are also multiple meanings from the mechancial point of view:(1) Does declaring an action for my PC trigger a resolution process which I, as a player, get to participate in?(2) Does declaring an action for my PC do nothing but oblige the GM to possibly think about what might result?These two dimensions are largely independent, I think, so you can have A1: action declaration doesn't change much about the fiction, but activates a resolution mechanic to find out what happens. This feels rather weak, because it's close to &quot;fortune at the beginning&quot; (The World, The Flesh and The Devil, maybe?). Not much sense of &quot;inhabitation&quot; of the PC - more like being a spectator.A2 - when I declare an action, even whether or not my PC's body moves in response to that desire is up to the GM. That seems like the ultimate in &quot;RPGing as kibitzing&quot;.B2 - I suspect this is how most of those who have preferences similar to [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION]'s play their games: action declaration has very modest effects on the fiction, very &quot;local&quot; to the body and immediate surrounds of the PC, and then the GM mediates the rest.B1 - This is something like 4e, Burning Wheel or Traveller as I understand it - declaring an action means that my PC is doing something in the fiction, hoping to achieve some outcome, and we use the appropriate mechanics to work out what that is.It's probably pretty obvious that I prefer B1.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7728783, member: 42582"] So the players are kibitzing on the GM's game? One issue here is what is meant by [I]action declaration[/I] - I think the idea that "players can only say what their PCs want" is ambiguous over possible meanings of action declaration. Thinking first from the perspective of the fiction, (A) one meaning of action declaration is "My character wants to do this". So all the changes in the fiction is my character's inner state (desires). Another meaning of action declaration is (B) "My character tries to do this" - so the player's declaration of an action brings about changes in the fiction (eg my PC's body is moving, so other stuff is being affected by it - we need to look to the resolution process to learn exactly what and how) There are also multiple meanings from the mechancial point of view: (1) Does declaring an action for my PC trigger a resolution process which I, as a player, get to participate in? (2) Does declaring an action for my PC do nothing but oblige the GM to possibly think about what might result? These two dimensions are largely independent, I think, so you can have A1: action declaration doesn't change much about the fiction, but activates a resolution mechanic to find out what happens. This feels rather weak, because it's close to "fortune at the beginning" (The World, The Flesh and The Devil, maybe?). Not much sense of "inhabitation" of the PC - more like being a spectator. A2 - when I declare an action, even whether or not my PC's body moves in response to that desire is up to the GM. That seems like the ultimate in "RPGing as kibitzing". B2 - I suspect this is how most of those who have preferences similar to [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION]'s play their games: action declaration has very modest effects on the fiction, very "local" to the body and immediate surrounds of the PC, and then the GM mediates the rest. B1 - This is something like 4e, Burning Wheel or Traveller as I understand it - declaring an action means that my PC is doing [I]something[/I] in the fiction, hoping to achieve some outcome, and we use the appropriate mechanics to work out what that is. It's probably pretty obvious that I prefer B1. [/QUOTE]

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