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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7729258" data-attributes="member: 42582">In a thread last year I called this the &quot;sudoku&quot; model of RPGing.I think at it's best (White Plume Mountain; perhaps Tomb of Horrors though personally I'm not sure I see it; Keep on the Borderlands as reported by Luke Crane's actual play posts), challenge-based play goes beyond &quot;sudoku&quot; because (i) there may be no single &quot;right&quot; answer, and (ii) any &quot;right&quot; answer isn't just mathematical/mechanical manipulation, but requires somehow engaging the fiction (my poster example for this is surfing the doors over the tetanus pits in WPM's frictionless corridor).But a lot of D&amp;D play seems to not involve this sort of engagement with the fiction, and to just be &quot;sudoku&quot; - mathematical/mechanical optimisation within a challenge framework that has no non-mathematical/mechanical parameters.Burning Wheel is pretty brutal, I think. That's why I always laugh at posters who equate &quot;fail forward&quot; with &quot;you never fail&quot;! - they're obviously playing some bowdlerised game in which &quot;failure&quot; equals &quot;succeed what you want but also suffer some modest cost or resource consumption&quot;.But another reason I think BW, DW etc can be hard is because the players have to supply characters with commitments/concerns/motivations beyond &quot;I want to win at this combat the GM has framed for me&quot;.&nbsp; There has to be some sort of non-challenge-related engagement with the fictional situation. That's not a side show, or mere characterisation (&quot;I turn the undead . . . with my symbol of Bahamut!&quot;). It's at the centre of the game.In some ways this is the same issue Traveller was often reported to have back in the day - whereas D&amp;D games defaulted to &quot;raid the dungeon&quot;, Traveller had no &quot;default&quot; challenge-mode (be it sudoku, or richer in its engagement with the fiction). The players have to actually engage with the fiction; and the GM has to put forward a fiction that will engage at the character/thematic level and not just the mechanical/mathematical level.Two thoughts.(1) It sounds like your players may not have been engaging with the fiction at that character/thematic level.(2) Obviously from your post I can't say anything very concrete about your game or your GMing - but your example makes it seem like the attempt to connect the failed Discern Realities to the failed Volley didn't work. The players couldn't see, or weren't invested, in how past failures could come back now to bite them. That may be an issue with your players; in which case perhaps there's nothing you can do about it.But if you want to think about it from your GM-side of things: is there more you could do to identify the dramatic needs of your players' PCs, and to make sure that you bring those into your resolution as much as possible? The idea (at least as I see it - admittedly I'm bringing in sensibilities learned from Burning Wheel and The Forge, rather than DW itself) is that when a player fails &quot;Discern Realities&quot;, the players look at one another and say &quot;Bugger, now innerdude is going to hit us with the . . . [pursuing orcs? whatever is salient given the state of the game and the evinced concerns of the players and their PCs] . . . Get ready for it.&quot; And then when the Volley check fails, they say &quot;Bad shot! For sure some pursuing orc will have noticed that misfired arrow, and used it to work out our position.&quot; So then, when you tell them &quot;The orcs crest the ridge, throwing spears&quot; the players don't complain - they groan &quot;OK, here they are . . .&quot; and gird their loins for the coming battle.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7729258, member: 42582"] In a thread last year I called this the "sudoku" model of RPGing. I think at it's best (White Plume Mountain; perhaps Tomb of Horrors though personally I'm not sure I see it; Keep on the Borderlands as reported by Luke Crane's actual play posts), challenge-based play goes beyond "sudoku" because (i) there may be no [I]single[/I] "right" answer, and (ii) any "right" answer isn't just mathematical/mechanical manipulation, but requires somehow engaging the fiction (my poster example for this is surfing the doors over the tetanus pits in WPM's frictionless corridor). But a lot of D&D play seems to not involve this sort of engagement with the fiction, and to just be "sudoku" - mathematical/mechanical optimisation within a challenge framework that has no non-mathematical/mechanical parameters. Burning Wheel is pretty brutal, I think. That's why I always laugh at posters who equate "fail forward" with "you never fail"! - they're obviously playing some bowdlerised game in which "failure" equals "succeed what you want but also suffer some modest cost or resource consumption". But another reason I think BW, DW etc can be hard is because the players have to supply characters with commitments/concerns/motivations beyond "I want to win at this combat the GM has framed for me". There has to be some sort of non-challenge-related engagement with the fictional situation. That's not a side show, or mere characterisation ("I turn the undead . . . with my symbol of Bahamut!"). It's at the centre of the game. In some ways this is the same issue Traveller was often reported to have back in the day - whereas D&D games defaulted to "raid the dungeon", Traveller had no "default" challenge-mode (be it sudoku, or richer in its engagement with the fiction). The players have to actually engage with the fiction; and the GM has to put forward a fiction that will engage at the character/thematic level and not just the mechanical/mathematical level. Two thoughts. (1) It sounds like your players may not have been engaging with the fiction at that character/thematic level. (2) Obviously from your post I can't say anything very concrete about your game or your GMing - but your example makes it seem like the attempt to connect the failed Discern Realities to the failed Volley didn't work. The players couldn't see, or weren't invested, in how past failures could come back now to bite them. That may be an issue with your players; in which case perhaps there's nothing you can do about it. But if you want to think about it from your GM-side of things: is there more you could do to identify the dramatic needs of your players' PCs, and to make sure that you bring those into your resolution as much as possible? The idea (at least as I see it - admittedly I'm bringing in sensibilities learned from Burning Wheel and The Forge, rather than DW itself) is that when a player fails "Discern Realities", the players look at one another and say "Bugger, now innerdude is going to hit us with the . . . [pursuing orcs? whatever is salient given the state of the game and the evinced concerns of the players and their PCs] . . . Get ready for it." And then when the Volley check fails, they say "Bad shot! For sure some pursuing orc will have noticed that misfired arrow, and used it to work out our position." So then, when you tell them "The orcs crest the ridge, throwing spears" the players don't complain - they groan "OK, here they are . . ." and gird their loins for the coming battle. [/QUOTE]

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