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Message: <blockquote data-quote="chaochou" data-source="post: 7729298" data-attributes="member: 99817">I don't know your players, so I wouldn't like to say. You could be right.But you might also want to try again with something different from Dungeon World. I actually think the two big 'crossover' games - Dungeon World and FATE - are also among the hardest to play well. Not so easy to run either, but definitely hard to play.Dungeon World, for example, started as a hack of Apocalypse World - so at it's very core is the assumption that you know and are familiar with all the procedure and principles in that game. The 'how to play' stuff in DW is, with all respect to Sage LaTorra, something of a pale imitation of the original. For example, here's Vincent Baker explaining one of many things to do when running Apocalypse World:"Leave yourself things to wonder about. You'll know it when it happens. A player will say something and you'll be like, hey wait, there are fish swimming down there. So you'll ask and the player will answer, but you'll be like 'I don't think that's the fish I'm after. The fish I'm after is still down there, deeper than I thought and bigger than I thought'."Sometimes it'll happen with one of your own NPCs. You'll be talking along and you'll be like, hold on, this guy Scrimp is a weasel but he isn't afraid of Marie, like at all. How can that be?"You don't need an explanation. Don't look too deep - this is just session one. Back away and make a note under 'I wonder...'. Don't explain everything."All that advice, central to the Apocalypse Engine and written with urgency and personality, gets cut from a lot of the hacks, or watered down to something tame and generic. The moves are far more bland as well. For example - Discern Realities says 'when you closely study a situation or person...' whereas AW has Read a Sitch (when you read a charged situation) or read a person (in a charged situation). In other words Apoc World assumes you are acting in tense, difficult circumstances. The ethos 'why would we need a roll otherwise?' is built in.I honestly think ultimately the game you're looking for is Burning Wheel. It invites players to optimise, and can withstand it and still draw the players into caring and fighting for more than the numbers on the sheet.But, you may want some more stepping stones to get there. FATE is difficult and yet worth the struggle, and Blades in the Dark may work well too. The aim is to see if your players can learn to accept failing at stuff as a major source of complication (and therefore fun for them, if not their character) and if they are willing to invest more of themselves and their emotion than just a voiceover (as @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a> alluded to in a post above). Don't mess up the game you're trying to get to on these experiments!</blockquote>

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