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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Derren" data-source="post: 3987566" data-attributes="member: 2518">I want to add something about this sort of argument. Yes, dragons can destroy villages. If they can also destroy cities is unknown but probably not as cities are very well defended including several adventurers.And according to WotC new Tier System, saving villages is "heroic" meaning suitable for heroes from level 1-10. So if dragons are only usable to threaten villages then they are de facto low level monsters as paragon PCs are supposed to go against greater threats.I am not sure but I heard that, for the first time in D&D history, dragons will have a fixed statblock. But that could be a unfounded rumor.Dragons do not have scent and blindsense goes only 60 ft. far. And even if the DM rules that the blindsense will wake a dragon when someone enters the radius the adventurers can still set up themselves around the dragon and prepare so that the dragon does not have a chance anyway.And how would the dragon use this "social engineering"? How would it manipulate others? Without magic to send messages or alter its form it can't talk with persons of power without revealing its nature. Even when it uses minions this can be quite hard (Try to manipulate someonw by sending a kobold as messanger.So to affect the world the dragon has to reveal itself if it has no magic. And as you said a known dragon is a dead dragon. Also minions would be a huge achilles heel in this case. They are either weak to be easily defeated and interrogated or strong and a threat for the dragon (running the show).I have no problem with what you call "primary concern" If the dragon is strong enough it would not need spells (especially as 4E spells will be weaker than in 3E). I am only a bit concerned that after some time a splatbook comes out which has a overpowered ability in it which the dragon is defensless against without magic (Think forcecage or shivering touch)The "Secondary Concern" is really my primary one. Without magic dragons have no real way to interact with the world on a large scale (to be a paragon or epic adversary). Sure the DM could simply give dragons all what they need but imo those out of combat abilities should be statted in teh MM (in a separate entry/statblock) because it gives monsters a better defined place in the world and might inspire the DM. You can still rule 0 it if you don't like those ooC abilities.The dragons magic items have the tendicy to become the PCs magic items. So when you give dragons lots of magical items you later have the problem that the PCs have too much magical gear.Thats also a good pointThat would be the worst case scenario and imo a very big disadvantage for 4E. I don't want three books full of combat rules. i also want utility abilities which makes sense so that I can run adventures which don't revolve around hack and slash.Villians need some way to interact with its world except pure combat (except you want things like teh Tarrasque or an Elder Evil). Magic is just one way to do that so it isn't strictly necessary (although in 3E magic was so powerfull that at higher level you were nothing without magic).The problem is that because of the lifestyle, society and physical characteristics of dragons they can't use the other ways to influence the world at all. Personally doing things in a city is nearly impossible for them as is crafting things itself.They only can do it through minions amd magic where magic is the prefered method because Minions will soon take over the whole show (considering what minions need to do for dragons there must be some quite powerful minions among them. And then why do you need the dragon?)Also having a lot of minions needs a lot of logistic. Where do those minions get their equipment and food from? Where do they live? what do they do in their free time? I don't simply throw some kobolds into a dragon lair and be done with it, I want this question to be answered in my adventures. Thats why I can't simply add some minions with an off thought.So I have always balance the off combat abilities of a dragon with its power level? No thanks. I rather have in build spellcasting for dragons which I can use anyway I want. Or at least give the dragon rituals (out of combat spells only).And I want to have a coherent world. Giving monsters arbitrary powers without explanation doesn't fit my style of DMing. I rather take a different monster than planned which has the abilities required by my adventure than rule0 the monster to have that ability.Also when I see the out of combat abilities from a monster I might be inspired or at least knew how this monster fits into the world. Imo the sentence "This dragon can cast spell from teh trickster domain" is much more useful to me than having no informations at all. And if I don't like the trickster domain or spellcasting dragons in general I can still change it. As you see, spelling out out of combat in the MM does in no way restrict the DMs. Actually it makes teh DMs job easier there is always the change that teh DM likes those abilities and does not have to change them. When those information is lacking the DM must always make something up.</blockquote>

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