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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Propheous_D" data-source="post: 3994499" data-attributes="member: 58952">Darren I am going to spell this out quickly:Communication with others - All ready pointed out that its a moot point because of the plethora of ways all ready detailed here on how to contact and deal with people with out magic. Not to mention that the Dragon could have a mildly magically ally who does the communication.Alarm spell - 1st level spell that shows up with detect magic and can be dispelled or avoided. Only lasts 2 hours per level and requires the dragon to be able to recast it EVERY DAY. Dragons don't have permanancy ieing around.Silent Image - All ready defeated requires concentration and LINE OF SIGHT.Invaisibility/Thief - Has blindsight 60ft thief can't get close enough to use it. As for poison last I checked Dragons have rediculous fort saves.Lets get to the meat about wizards travelling:Wizards have other options but they do not tend to use them. In 3.5 Invisibility doesn't last that long, Fly lasts just as long. So those what 20 minutes of invisible flight are realy quite usefull.archers vs a dragon - An archer has to have LoS which easily defeated even  in the air. The PC's once again can only fly for 20 minutes tops. The dragon flies at a minimum of 100ft per round while a PC does 60. A dragon moving double will be out of the range of a standard bow in 2 rounds atleast. Not including cover. Again your archer would have to deal incredible amounts of damage in a VERY short period. While possible it is very unlikely that the dragon will sustain enough to die. Dragons have hundreds of hp and rediculous AC. While it may be possible for someone to sufficiently damage them in the time aloted it is most unlikely.Bottomline your counter arguements are not proving that Dragons are any more susceptable to death by tactics then they are in 3E or 3.5E. In fact I would go so far to say that its easier to take out dragons in 3E or 3.5E using these tactics because of the PC rules in those versions.Give us an arguement that proves beyond a shodow of a doubt that the lack of spells in 4th for dragons out of the box makes them lose anything beyond having to use a iittle elbow grease and persusion.P.S. I am sure a dragon is more then capable of putting a plug in a door and resting a rock on top before he goes to sleep at night. I personally like to make sure my doors are locked and my phones are charging and my lights are off before I go to bed. I even brush my teeth and wash. I bet it takes me longer to do that.To be honest Darren I am not trying to be antagonistic with you but your resolute mannerism about how dragons lose all credibility because they lose magic is just silly. The idea also that a BBEG needs magic or levels o caster classes is also silly. That would be a HUGE problem with the game (meaning 4E as 3E had a magic to balance magic approach). The problem here that everyone seems to be having with your ideology is that you are applying a 3E mindset to something that is VERY far removed from 3E by all accounts. The core of 4E the soul and heart of it remains roughly the same but the application of it seems to have taken a change. I for one am very ready for it.</blockquote>

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