LOTR logic question, part 2

[KenM]

Yes, but not necessarily the scene /in/ the volcano from the movie, where it would have been rediculously easy for Elrond to grab it and drop it in and be done with it, because the fire was right THERE, rather than grabbing it and being hunted by Isildur and all his men while Elrond tries to find his way up the mountain.

My point excatly.

 

[Umbran]

But it would never have worked. A clear theme in Tolkien seems to be using evil methods to accomplish good never works in the long run.

Specifically, the Ring seems has a sort of mind of it's own. It is not simply an object that cannot help itself like a normal piece of jewelry. If there's a struggle between Isildur and Elrond, then you can bet your last doughnut that the ring would somehow wind up off Isildur's hand before he winds up in the fire, just as it wound up out of Gollum's possession just before Bilbo came along...

 

[Renaissance Man]

Interesting discussion. Would it be an oversimplification to say that Elrond did not possess the power to take the Ring from Isildur? It is, after all The Ring.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Interesting discussion. Would it be an oversimplification to say that Elrond did not possess the power to take the Ring from Isildur? It is, after all The Ring.

I don't think that would be an oversimplification at all. Especially given the proximity of the Ring to its place of origin at the time, making it as powerful as it got, besides being on Sauron's finger.

 

[Prince Atom]

Hardly anyone can do anything the Ring does not want them to do.

The Ring does not want Isildur to destroy it; he cannot throw it into the volcano.

The Ring does not want to be found by its enemies; Gollum cannot stay out in the open, and finds lodging of a sort beneath the Misty Mountains.

The Ring does not want to be left in the clutches of Gollum; Bilbo cannot bear to leave it behind.

The Ring wants to get back to its Master; Bilbo can hardly leave it at home (this is perhaps the one time anyone has resisted it).

If the Ring wanted to stay in the Shire, do you think the hobbits could have taken it to Rivendell?

It's so quiescent on the road to Mordor, could it possibly not want to go there?

Ultimately, history will repeat itself; the Ring will once again find itself in the volcano, trying with all its might to get this foolish mortal to preserve it....

If Elrond had tried to destroy it, do you think he could have succeeded?

TWK

 

[KenM]

Hardly anyone can do anything the Ring does not want them to do.

The Ring does not want Isildur to destroy it; he cannot throw it into the volcano.

The Ring does not want to be found by its enemies; Gollum cannot stay out in the open, and finds lodging of a sort beneath the Misty Mountains.

The Ring does not want to be left in the clutches of Gollum; Bilbo cannot bear to leave it behind.

The Ring wants to get back to its Master; Bilbo can hardly leave it at home (this is perhaps the one time anyone has resisted it).

If the Ring wanted to stay in the Shire, do you think the hobbits could have taken it to Rivendell?

It's so quiescent on the road to Mordor, could it possibly not want to go there?

Ultimately, history will repeat itself; the Ring will once again find itself in the volcano, trying with all its might to get this foolish mortal to preserve it....

If Elrond had tried to destroy it, do you think he could have succeeded?

TWK

Well I'm sure the ring did not want Gollum to fall back into the fire with Frodo's finger in his mouth, with the ring on. But as a matter of physics, it fell with Gollum. We saw how heavy it is in the fellowship movie, when Bilbo turns his hand over, and the ring falls, sounding VERY heavy.
Elrond knocks Ilsidur into over the edge, physics takes care of the rest.

 

[Bob Aberton]

Yah, he could have, but it wouldn't be as easy as just that.

For one thing, he is a Great Force of Good in Middle-Earth. The thing that separates the good guys from the bad guys is that they DON'T just throw their FRIEND and ALLY into a fiery pit because it is convenient.

Then they would be as bad as Sauron. A very Nietzchean trap; "When you look into the abyss..." and all that.


Also, he would have destiny going against him. Gandalf says:

"Bilbo was meant to find the ring..." to Frodo; he implies that the Ring has an ultimate fate and destiny.

Therefore, Elrond could not have destroyed it. He is powerful, but NOT so powerful as to defy fate itself; he is not powerful enough to challenge Eru Illuvatar, the Omnipotent Being. If he tried to destroy the Ring then, in that place and time, he would be attempting to defy Illuvatar. And he would have failed.

 

[KenM]

Yah, he could have, but it wouldn't be as easy as just that.

For one thing, he is a Great Force of Good in Middle-Earth. The thing that separates the good guys from the bad guys is that they DON'T just throw their FRIEND and ALLY into a fiery pit because it is convenient.

Elrond knows the coruptting force of the ring, if he tossed Ilisdur in, he would have saved his friend from grief and hardship. But Elrond choose to do nothing, and therefore brings hardship on Frodo ect. when the take up the quest. In the movie, since he was right there, he could have done something, but did not because the authur did not think it was convenient at that time.

 

[Umbran]

Elrond knows the coruptting force of the ring,

From where did he get this information? Did he and Sauron sit down for latte one day and discuss the corrupting force of the Ring?

Remember, folks - before that time, the only entity to wear the Ring was Sauron. Elrond may have had fears, but he didn't know a darned thing. You don't go killing a hero of the age over a suspicion.

Also, it seems to me the Ring doesn't contol physical actions. It corrupts your intent - it changes what you want to do in general, but has no control over the particulars of where you put your feet. It doesn't stop Gollum from falling into the volcano because Gollum hadn't intended to do so.