Lotsa rule questions

[brehobit]

I'm making a 15th level arcane caster and I've been playing lower-level and mainly fighters. I had a number of issues have come up.

#1 Can you Empower a dispel magic? My reading says a 15th level caster throwing an empowerd dispel magic would have an effect of (d10+10)*1.5. this is better than a greater dispel magic (also 5th level).

#2 Can you chain a targetted dispel magic?

#3 Looking at the feat "persistance" from T&B it seems somewhat useless for a Wizard. For a Cleric though it seems like a crazy thing. Divine favor is scary for a 15th level cleric to have all day (+5 LUCK bonus to attack and damage) add divine power and Righteous Might and OMG no fighter has a chance. Am I missing something (either on the Wizard side this being moderate or on the Cleric side this being huge?)



Also some general questions on balance:

a) The metamagic rods from Tome and Blood seem huge. Especially the minor rod of quickening. I mean the wizard can choose on the fly which spells (level 1-3) to quicken. In 3.5 where haste has been nerfed these things seem like the best way to get that extra action (well only 3 times a day but it still seems huge for the cost.)

b) No one seems to use colorspray at higher levels but I was thinking that an Enlarged colorspray is a nasty thing. As only a second level spell you get a 120 foot (24 square) long cone. If you quicken that (either with the rod or the feat) you have a fair chance of stunning a lot of folks.

c) Is it migh imagination or would resolving Evard's Black Tentacles be a major pain in the rear? I mean 16-19 grapple attacks!? Ouch.

d) Are there any true "save or die" spells that aren't against Fort? I could swear there was one Will one in the PHB but I can't find it.

e) Is spell-turning almost useless? It seems like it works against very very few spells as most spells are either area of effect or perhaps ranged touch.

f) The wiz I've designed seems pretty good but feels like a weapon's platform. He can take a lot of damage (about 100 hps without a toad!) has a reasonable AC (21-32 depending on spells up). But he can be killed in a second by any reasonable "save or die" spell. He has a Fort save of 13 (5 for class, 4 for stat, 4 for ring of resistance). But he throws save-or-dies with a save DC of 26 (best case) and doesn't have spell focus! Am I missing something? I'm feeling like I need to do something to be sure never to be targeted. I'm also looking at a scarab of protection.... It seems like a wiz should be most vuln. to fighters I think I can at least survive a round and escape against one of those. But other casters are much more scary. Is there some defense I'm looking past (other than spell turning?)

Mark

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

I'll answer what I can

1) No. It's in the Empower feat description

2)

3)

a)

b) At high levels, color spray will at best stun 1d6 creatures for 1 round.

c)

d) Phantasmal Killer is Will and Fort, Hold Monster is pretty much a Will save or die spell.

e) Maybe, but it'll protect you from charms, holds, phantasmal killer

f)

If this were a test i'd flunk

Maitre D

 

[Otterscrubber]

You are on the money in stating that other casters are your biggest concern. Screw save or die, how about Power Word Stun. No save, fight is over for the first one to get it off. Not many casters have 150+ hit points.

1) Not sure, my instinct says no, but I know instinct dont go far on these boards.

2) Again, not sure

3) I'll never understand why Divine Favor is a 1st level spell. It is a wicked bonus that stacks with almost everything. Clerics own fighters, unless you want to be a bow fighter. As long as they get their buffs up of course Persistance and DF is straight up mean. As tough as clerics can be though, they are usually not the ones doing most of the fighting, simply because they are busy healing, dispelling or something else vital to the survival of the party.

A) Meta magic rods are huge, so huge in fact we've never used them in our campaigns.

B) I agree, I like seeing effective lower level spells put to good use in clever ways. Plus it would just look cool.

C) The bigger pain in the ass is rolling for placing them in the first place. Once they grab onto something they dont let go so it's just a matter of rolling a few grapples extra every round after you sort things out on the first.

D) Not that I know of off the top of my head.

E) Spell turning rocks, it will defend you from all those nasty things you mention in #F below. As you already noticed. Most of those area spells can be resisted, avoided or protected against in some way. It's the one shot killers that get you at the high levels.

F) I dont see why Spell turning isnt a viable option here, especially as nothing else does the job quite as well.

 

[brehobit]

I'll answer what I can

1) No. It's in the Empower feat description

.....

b) At high levels, color spray will at best stun 1d6 creatures for 1 round.

Maitre D

Humm, somehow missed the dispel magic line in the Empower feat. Opps. Missed the d6 too. Ah well. I was asking to see if I missed something....

Thanks!

Mark

 

[Kraedin]

#1 Can you Empower a dispel magic? My reading says a 15th level caster throwing an empowerd dispel magic would have an effect of (d10+10)*1.5. this is better than a greater dispel magic (also 5th level).

No; see the Empower Spell description.

#2 Can you chain a targetted dispel magic?

Yes.

#3 Looking at the feat "persistance" from T&B it seems somewhat useless for a Wizard. For a Cleric though it seems like a crazy thing. Divine favor is scary for a 15th level cleric to have all day (+5 LUCK bonus to attack and damage) add divine power and Righteous Might and OMG no fighter has a chance. Am I missing something (either on the Wizard side this being moderate or on the Cleric side this being huge?)

No, you're right. It's a weak wizard feat and a border-line broken cleric feat.

a) The metamagic rods from Tome and Blood seem huge. Especially the minor rod of quickening. I mean the wizard can choose on the fly which spells (level 1-3) to quicken. In 3.5 where haste has been nerfed these things seem like the best way to get that extra action (well only 3 times a day but it still seems huge for the cost.)

I don't allow metamagic rods in my game; I feel they're a bit much.

b) No one seems to use colorspray at higher levels but I was thinking that an Enlarged colorspray is a nasty thing. As only a second level spell you get a 120 foot (24 square) long cone. If you quicken that (either with the rod or the feat) you have a fair chance of stunning a lot of folks.

Keep in mind that subjects with five or more hit dice are only stunned for one round.

c) Is it migh imagination or would resolving Evard's Black Tentacles be a major pain in the rear? I mean 16-19 grapple attacks!? Ouch.

It can get messy. That, plus the indiscriminant targeting, makes the spell unpopular in my experince.

d) Are there any true "save or die" spells that aren't against Fort? I could swear there was one Will one in the PHB but I can't find it.

None that I know of.

e) Is spell-turning almost useless? It seems like it works against very very few spells as most spells are either area of effect or perhaps ranged touch.

It's fun when a finger of death bounces off, though.

f) The wiz I've designed seems pretty good but feels like a weapon's platform. He can take a lot of damage (about 100 hps without a toad!) has a reasonable AC (21-32 depending on spells up). But he can be killed in a second by any reasonable "save or die" spell. He has a Fort save of 13 (5 for class, 4 for stat, 4 for ring of resistance). But he throws save-or-dies with a save DC of 26 (best case) and doesn't have spell focus! Am I missing something? I'm feeling like I need to do something to be sure never to be targeted. I'm also looking at a scarab of protection.... It seems like a wiz should be most vuln. to fighters I think I can at least survive a round and escape against one of those. But other casters are much more scary. Is there some defense I'm looking past (other than spell turning?)

Death ward is a cleric spell that grants immunity to death effects. Buy your cleric a wand of it.

 

[andargor]

Death ward is a cleric spell that grants immunity to death effects. Buy your cleric a wand of it.

Death Ward is not on the Wizard spell list (DMG p.175)

Andargor

 

[Kraedin]

Well, yeah. That's why I say it's a cleric spell and you should buy a wand of death ward for your cleric.

 

[andargor]

Well, yeah. That's why I say it's a cleric spell and you should buy a wand of death ward for your cleric.

Ooops, sorry. Misread as "buy one from your cleric".

Andargor

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

It's fun when a finger of death bounces off, though.

Hey I just realized that finger of death isnt a ranged touch attack.

Maitre D

 

[LokiDR]

#1 Can you Empower a dispel magic? My reading says a 15th level caster throwing an empowerd dispel magic would have an effect of (d10+10)*1.5. this is better than a greater dispel magic (also 5th level).

Maitre Du Donjon is right.

#2 Can you chain a targetted dispel magic?

Yes. All you need is for the spell to specifiy a single target and have a range greater than touch. This is a powerful use of the spell.

#3 Looking at the feat "persistance" from T&B it seems somewhat useless for a Wizard. For a Cleric though it seems like a crazy thing. Divine favor is scary for a 15th level cleric to have all day (+5 LUCK bonus to attack and damage) add divine power and Righteous Might and OMG no fighter has a chance. Am I missing something (either on the Wizard side this being moderate or on the Cleric side this being huge?)

I take it for 1 reason: persistant improved invisibility. Persistant shield is good as well. Yes, clerics have an advantage but not everything.

a) The metamagic rods from Tome and Blood seem huge. Especially the minor rod of quickening. I mean the wizard can choose on the fly which spells (level 1-3) to quicken. In 3.5 where haste has been nerfed these things seem like the best way to get that extra action (well only 3 times a day but it still seems huge for the cost.)

We abused a chain spell rod for GMW and Magic Vestments. I don't like the rods personally.

b) No one seems to use colorspray at higher levels but I was thinking that an Enlarged colorspray is a nasty thing. As only a second level spell you get a 120 foot (24 square) long cone. If you quicken that (either with the rod or the feat) you have a fair chance of stunning a lot of folks.

Only 1d6 creatures for 1 round (assuming 5 HD). It is flashy, but not worth your time in a combat. You may, however, get a job as a traveling performer.

c) Is it migh imagination or would resolving Evard's Black Tentacles be a major pain in the rear? I mean 16-19 grapple attacks!? Ouch.

Grappling is a pain in general. The last time I saw this spell used, the tentacles were killed in the next fireball.

d) Are there any true "save or die" spells that aren't against Fort? I could swear there was one Will one in the PHB but I can't find it.

Hold monster, 3e, is really a save or die. You just have to reach them before it wears out. 15 rounds should be plenty. Otherwise the phantasmal killer and wierd spells both have will and fort. Likwise a Shadow magic version of a save or die spell.

e) Is spell-turning almost useless? It seems like it works against very very few spells as most spells are either area of effect or perhaps ranged touch.

Many of the nastiest spells are targeted. There is nothing like the look on your opponents face when their targeted greater dispel magic comes back at them. It isn't always useful, but it is something to take if you know you are facing an enemy spellcaster.

f) The wiz I've designed seems pretty good but feels like a weapon's platform. He can take a lot of damage (about 100 hps without a toad!) has a reasonable AC (21-32 depending on spells up). But he can be killed in a second by any reasonable "save or die" spell. He has a Fort save of 13 (5 for class, 4 for stat, 4 for ring of resistance). But he throws save-or-dies with a save DC of 26 (best case) and doesn't have spell focus! Am I missing something? I'm feeling like I need to do something to be sure never to be targeted. I'm also looking at a scarab of protection.... It seems like a wiz should be most vuln. to fighters I think I can at least survive a round and escape against one of those. But other casters are much more scary. Is there some defense I'm looking past (other than spell turning?)

Multiple empowed endurance spell. HP and fort save. Empowered false life, for the extra HP. Persistant improved invis should stop nearly any fighter. Mirror Image stops targeting quite well, after the FAQ said figments can be targeted. Polymorph for natural armor is always useful. Energy immunity is a must, for at least a few elements. Cast 2 extended spells every day and be immune to 4 elements. If you intend to get anywhere near combat, consider stoneskin. It is expensive, but the extra bonus is nice.

You will want to keep multiple mirror images around, since it is one of the most usefull 2nd level spells to you at that point. Also, keep a couple of false life spells, or a wand, around at all times. The temp HP can be a real life saver, reviving fallen allies, buffing, or refreshing a buff. Don't forget polymorph can also heal.

Just remember, these are all powergaming tatics and not appreciated by some DMs. Don't make the rest of the party look useless. Be willing to buff others. Be willing to try alternatives.

Polymorph + transformation = good melee guy (for a time)
GMW bow and arrows + polymorph + cat's grace = backup archer all day long.