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<blockquote data-quote="rounser" data-source="post: 276799" data-attributes="member: 1106">Point taken.&nbsp; Although, incidentally, I'm working my way through Throne of Bhaal at the moment, and was confronted just last night by a morally complex situation with no clearly defined solution, and so wouldn't say that they're totally absent from CRPGs...SPOILERThere is a man who wants his daughter's soul returned, as it has been stolen by a lich who he wants the heroes to slay.&nbsp; However, discussion with the lich reveals that the man had a deal whereby he would hand over his soul in return for 20 years of success and riches.&nbsp; At payup time, the man refused, so the lich stole first his wife and then his daughter's soul until the man would give his soul willingly - as agreed.&nbsp; I thought there no clear, black and white villain here, and the solution a subjective one.Ha!&nbsp; Sacrilege!&nbsp; &quot;Kill things and get rewarded for it&quot; is one of the sacred, unquestionable cornerstones of D&amp;D - it's powerful enough a hook to keep Diablo and Everquest compelling (for a little while, at least), even when the games lack plot and depth alike. Seriously, though your point is well taken, I believe that a mixed approach is probably best.&nbsp; If all villains are black and white and all problems solved with force and fortitude, the game lacks depth.&nbsp; Yet if all villains are morally gray and undeserving of an ass-whooping just as they are undeserving of total forgiveness, the vicarious thrill of delivering comeuppance is missed.&nbsp; For the morally complex situations and villains to stand out, they need their black and white counterparts (and vice versa) - sort of a yin and yang thing, I suppose.Then again, your group's tastes are better known to you than to I, and they may well be specialised in this direction.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="rounser, post: 276799, member: 1106"] Point taken. Although, incidentally, I'm working my way through Throne of Bhaal at the moment, and was confronted just last night by a morally complex situation with no clearly defined solution, and so wouldn't say that they're totally absent from CRPGs... SPOILER There is a man who wants his daughter's soul returned, as it has been stolen by a lich who he wants the heroes to slay. However, discussion with the lich reveals that the man had a deal whereby he would hand over his soul in return for 20 years of success and riches. At payup time, the man refused, so the lich stole first his wife and then his daughter's soul until the man would give his soul willingly - as agreed. I thought there no clear, black and white villain here, and the solution a subjective one. Ha! Sacrilege! "Kill things and get rewarded for it" is one of the sacred, unquestionable cornerstones of D&D - it's powerful enough a hook to keep Diablo and Everquest compelling (for a little while, at least), even when the games lack plot and depth alike. Seriously, though your point is well taken, I believe that a mixed approach is probably best. If all villains are black and white and all problems solved with force and fortitude, the game lacks depth. Yet if all villains are morally gray and undeserving of an ass-whooping just as they are undeserving of total forgiveness, the vicarious thrill of delivering comeuppance is missed. For the morally complex situations and villains to stand out, they need their black and white counterparts (and vice versa) - sort of a yin and yang thing, I suppose. Then again, your group's tastes are better known to you than to I, and they may well be specialised in this direction. [/QUOTE]

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