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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5001906" data-attributes="member: 4937">Several of the Greek heroes of the Illiad could be legitimately read as brutes - Ajax sort of stands out as an example of brute force over intelligence, refinement or skillfulness.   Although the biggest and strongest of the Acheans, he is almost always bested by his comrades in contests involving skill, intelligence, or charisma.  That is particularly Greek in conception, of course, just as Athena consistantly bests her more brutish rival Ares.Odysseus is supreme in Metis - 'intelligent cunning' just as Ajax is supreme in strength and Achilles supreme in martial skill.  But he isn't 'wise' as we would understand the term in D&D or modern culture, and is almost as frequently tricked as he is tricky.  He lacks self-control, and is as much tossed about by his life because of it as he is tossed about by the sea (which may be a deliberate metaphor by the author). I'm not exactly sure were you are going with your post, but I agree that 3e (for example) doesn't provide enough support for a 'cunning warrior' character.  It's much easier to play Ajax than Odysseus in 3e.  In 4e, you'd be forced to choose a different class like 'Warlord' which is an improvement perhaps, but it is questionable whether it captures the right flavor, because while Diomedes and Oddysseus do provide leadership, Diomedes (for example) was able to beat Ajax in a boxing contest by being more cunning than his opponent.</blockquote>

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