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Low CRs and "Boring" Monsters: Ogre
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<blockquote data-quote="Dualazi" data-source="post: 6986042" data-attributes="member: 6855537"><p>You showed nothing with your example. First off, you neglected to mention the additional foes in your “roll-playing” example, and then failed to show how the ogre was going to do anything different other than his basic attack in the second. I can dump tons of effort into making cool descriptions for that basic attack, as can basically anyone. That doesn't change the fact that that is all that happens from the ogre most of the time.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>So close to understanding... but a miss. In your example, at best the ogre wastes his turn with yelling for his buddies and a worthless improvised ranged weapon attack. What do you think happens afterwards? You even say it yourself; “... if there is no other reasonable option to the DM.” That's it. That's our complaint. There ISN'T a reasonable option for them to do stuff at the base level. There's either a convenient environmental threat that any and all enemies with a decent strength can make use of, or there isn't and it's back to the auto attack. In your example, what is difference between having an ogre be there, and a hill giant (excluding the CR difference)? Because as far as I can tell, there isn't one.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>1) really isn't a point, it's just progression of stats.</p><p></p><p>2) While this is a difference, it's not a significant one. Their respective dex and wis saves are still mediocre at best, since their linked stats are at 9 and 10 respectively, and more importantly is this is unlikely to be a discernible difference to the players, unless they make their enemies have tons of saves and are able to appreciate the slight difference. It also doesn't change how the giant behaves at all or the actions it takes, which it the real crux of the issue here. Whether the saves come up at all is completely dependent on the players, and the giants don't really change how they operate as a result.</p><p></p><p>3) The kiting aspect is actually pretty cool...except it's technically available to all giants. The only reason the fire giant is slower than its kin is the armor, if you drop that in the same way you modify them to have longswords, then they regain their 40ft move speed and return to just being bigger frost giants. Which leads us back to all the giants being indistinct number increases of each other. Also, personally the idea of giants using hit and run tactics is also weird, but that's a personal issue.</p><p></p><p>4) Yeah, as you state, for that tactic to be good you have to already be house-ruling the stat block, a +9-11 bonus is still going to overwhelm all but the burliest PCs, and grapple/shove are generic combat options that the giants are no better at than any other large strength-heavy creature.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dualazi, post: 6986042, member: 6855537"] You showed nothing with your example. First off, you neglected to mention the additional foes in your “roll-playing” example, and then failed to show how the ogre was going to do anything different other than his basic attack in the second. I can dump tons of effort into making cool descriptions for that basic attack, as can basically anyone. That doesn't change the fact that that is all that happens from the ogre most of the time. So close to understanding... but a miss. In your example, at best the ogre wastes his turn with yelling for his buddies and a worthless improvised ranged weapon attack. What do you think happens afterwards? You even say it yourself; “... if there is no other reasonable option to the DM.” That's it. That's our complaint. There ISN'T a reasonable option for them to do stuff at the base level. There's either a convenient environmental threat that any and all enemies with a decent strength can make use of, or there isn't and it's back to the auto attack. In your example, what is difference between having an ogre be there, and a hill giant (excluding the CR difference)? Because as far as I can tell, there isn't one. 1) really isn't a point, it's just progression of stats. 2) While this is a difference, it's not a significant one. Their respective dex and wis saves are still mediocre at best, since their linked stats are at 9 and 10 respectively, and more importantly is this is unlikely to be a discernible difference to the players, unless they make their enemies have tons of saves and are able to appreciate the slight difference. It also doesn't change how the giant behaves at all or the actions it takes, which it the real crux of the issue here. Whether the saves come up at all is completely dependent on the players, and the giants don't really change how they operate as a result. 3) The kiting aspect is actually pretty cool...except it's technically available to all giants. The only reason the fire giant is slower than its kin is the armor, if you drop that in the same way you modify them to have longswords, then they regain their 40ft move speed and return to just being bigger frost giants. Which leads us back to all the giants being indistinct number increases of each other. Also, personally the idea of giants using hit and run tactics is also weird, but that's a personal issue. 4) Yeah, as you state, for that tactic to be good you have to already be house-ruling the stat block, a +9-11 bonus is still going to overwhelm all but the burliest PCs, and grapple/shove are generic combat options that the giants are no better at than any other large strength-heavy creature. [/QUOTE]
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