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Low CRs and "Boring" Monsters: Ogre
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<blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 6986487" data-attributes="member: 15700"><p>If you don't want me to call out YOU making a strawman, then perhaps YOU shouldn't make a straw man. This isn't me derailing, this is me asking you to back up your claim.</p><p></p><p>"People have been saying this."</p><p>"Reallly? Where?"</p><p>"Don't derail the thread"</p><p></p><p>SMH...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes he did. He said there isn't any other option an ogre would take other than it's base attack, based on what I'm assuming is metagaming DPR. That's simply false. An ogre will do whatever it's typical behavior would do and in what environment it's encountered. You guys can't seem to grasp this concept because I've been saying it often and your response are all in the context of comparing it to DPR. It would be impossible for me to list every scenario and environment a monster can be encountered with. Will an ogre do it's base attack? Sure, probably most often. But depending on it's surroundings and what's available to it, it may do something else. That's a concept you seem to be either dead set against, or unable to visualize.</p><p></p><p>I'm still waiting for you to quote me saying the things you said I said by the way.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The contradiction was you saying I never showed how an ogre can do anything other than a base attack and literally followed that up in the next paragraph with you pointing out how I had the ogre do something other than a base attack. You argued two opposite positions in the same post. Specifically:</p><p></p><p>"You showed nothing with your example." (that showed an ogre did something other than base attack)</p><p>" In your example, at best the ogre wastes his turn with yelling for his buddies and a worthless improvised ranged weapon attack" (which is not it's base attack)</p><p></p><p>That's a contradiction</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe a javelin wasn't readily available. This is what I keep trying to get through, and apparently it's falling on deaf ears. <em>The environment of the encounter matters</em>. You keep assuming that the statblock is the only thing that seems to impact the game. I bet every single one of your goblins have leather armor and shields because that's what the statblock says, often in spite of what may actually be available in the environment. Maybe the goblins don't have short bows, maybe they have mail shirts, maybe they have spears, maybe they improvise traps, etc. Statblocks are baselines. And even if a javelin is available, you're using metagame knowledge to make a decision for the ogre. Yet another reason why the fluff is important. Ogres are brutish and violent and dumb and prone to immediate outbursts. it fits the ogre's personality to grab the carcass it's next to and hurl it rather than think to itself, "Well, the javelin has a higher DPR, so I'll go grab that instead of the thing right in front of me."</p><p></p><p>You call the ogre boring, but are completely ignoring the things that can make the encounter less boring for metagaming reasons. That's 100% on you, not the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And what you keep refusing to acknowledge is that flavor does impart a functional difference. Flavor is what sets the encounter, it tells you how the monster will behave, how it will act, and in what types of settings it will be found. Those are all things that have a real and functional impact in the combat encounter unless you're playing arena style D&D. Since hill giants are literally meant to fill the role of "bigger ogre", there's not a whole lot of functional difference other than having the higher stats of being a larger and tougher creature. But there is another difference in that hill giants try to emulate the culture of those around them. So a hill giant will most likely be encountered in a different environment than an ogre, who just wanders around from place to place when the food runs try. The DMG gives two example of hill giants trying to live in trees and building dwellings with doors and windows. So even with two creatures that are intended to be very similar, that is still a <em>functional</em> difference because it impacts game play.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If I've been saying that (mechanical details aren't important and a good roleplayer only needs fluff) all thread, then I suppose it's easy for you to find one quote of me arguing that the mechanical details aren't important and that good roleplayers only need flavor text. Just one. I'll wait. What you will find is me saying the fluff is equally important, but that's not the same as saying mechanical details aren't, or that good role players only need fluff is it?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You argued that the flavor text doesn't add anything to combat. And that is blatantly false. How a monster behaves, how it reacts, and it's motivations affect how it handles combat because those things drive <em>every</em> decision, in or out of combat. it's a direct impact to combat. It affects things like tactics, will it flee or surrender or fight to the death, will it even enter combat in the first place (using the hill giant above, the quickest way to get it to fight is to insult it), etc. Unless you're playing a boardgame like Wrath of A, where the rules clearly say that all monsters can only do what's on their statsheet and the environment and other people around it can't be interacted with outside of those strict actions, then behavior and fluff matters. In fact, that's what makes a TTRPG an RPG compared to what makes Wrath of A a boardgame.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sacrosanct, post: 6986487, member: 15700"] If you don't want me to call out YOU making a strawman, then perhaps YOU shouldn't make a straw man. This isn't me derailing, this is me asking you to back up your claim. "People have been saying this." "Reallly? Where?" "Don't derail the thread" SMH... Yes he did. He said there isn't any other option an ogre would take other than it's base attack, based on what I'm assuming is metagaming DPR. That's simply false. An ogre will do whatever it's typical behavior would do and in what environment it's encountered. You guys can't seem to grasp this concept because I've been saying it often and your response are all in the context of comparing it to DPR. It would be impossible for me to list every scenario and environment a monster can be encountered with. Will an ogre do it's base attack? Sure, probably most often. But depending on it's surroundings and what's available to it, it may do something else. That's a concept you seem to be either dead set against, or unable to visualize. I'm still waiting for you to quote me saying the things you said I said by the way. The contradiction was you saying I never showed how an ogre can do anything other than a base attack and literally followed that up in the next paragraph with you pointing out how I had the ogre do something other than a base attack. You argued two opposite positions in the same post. Specifically: "You showed nothing with your example." (that showed an ogre did something other than base attack) " In your example, at best the ogre wastes his turn with yelling for his buddies and a worthless improvised ranged weapon attack" (which is not it's base attack) That's a contradiction Maybe a javelin wasn't readily available. This is what I keep trying to get through, and apparently it's falling on deaf ears. [i]The environment of the encounter matters[/i]. You keep assuming that the statblock is the only thing that seems to impact the game. I bet every single one of your goblins have leather armor and shields because that's what the statblock says, often in spite of what may actually be available in the environment. Maybe the goblins don't have short bows, maybe they have mail shirts, maybe they have spears, maybe they improvise traps, etc. Statblocks are baselines. And even if a javelin is available, you're using metagame knowledge to make a decision for the ogre. Yet another reason why the fluff is important. Ogres are brutish and violent and dumb and prone to immediate outbursts. it fits the ogre's personality to grab the carcass it's next to and hurl it rather than think to itself, "Well, the javelin has a higher DPR, so I'll go grab that instead of the thing right in front of me." You call the ogre boring, but are completely ignoring the things that can make the encounter less boring for metagaming reasons. That's 100% on you, not the game. And what you keep refusing to acknowledge is that flavor does impart a functional difference. Flavor is what sets the encounter, it tells you how the monster will behave, how it will act, and in what types of settings it will be found. Those are all things that have a real and functional impact in the combat encounter unless you're playing arena style D&D. Since hill giants are literally meant to fill the role of "bigger ogre", there's not a whole lot of functional difference other than having the higher stats of being a larger and tougher creature. But there is another difference in that hill giants try to emulate the culture of those around them. So a hill giant will most likely be encountered in a different environment than an ogre, who just wanders around from place to place when the food runs try. The DMG gives two example of hill giants trying to live in trees and building dwellings with doors and windows. So even with two creatures that are intended to be very similar, that is still a [i]functional[/i] difference because it impacts game play. If I've been saying that (mechanical details aren't important and a good roleplayer only needs fluff) all thread, then I suppose it's easy for you to find one quote of me arguing that the mechanical details aren't important and that good roleplayers only need flavor text. Just one. I'll wait. What you will find is me saying the fluff is equally important, but that's not the same as saying mechanical details aren't, or that good role players only need fluff is it? You argued that the flavor text doesn't add anything to combat. And that is blatantly false. How a monster behaves, how it reacts, and it's motivations affect how it handles combat because those things drive [i]every[/i] decision, in or out of combat. it's a direct impact to combat. It affects things like tactics, will it flee or surrender or fight to the death, will it even enter combat in the first place (using the hill giant above, the quickest way to get it to fight is to insult it), etc. Unless you're playing a boardgame like Wrath of A, where the rules clearly say that all monsters can only do what's on their statsheet and the environment and other people around it can't be interacted with outside of those strict actions, then behavior and fluff matters. In fact, that's what makes a TTRPG an RPG compared to what makes Wrath of A a boardgame. [/QUOTE]
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